any and all suggestions please

[Sherrie]

My girl is now in heat. The problem is her last heat cycle was the last part of August and first part of September. She usually cycles every 5-6 months.
We did AI on her 9-3 & 9-4.Progesterone levels were checked.
She ultrasounded at 30 days with no puppies.
She has been fine and is fine now EXCEPT she is back in heat.

Is it possible she had a false pregnancy. I did not see any difference in her. No weight gain or nesting.

Any ideas would be very appreciated.

Sherrie

 

[newfvo]

Are you sure she is in heat and isn't having a pyometria discharge? Is there any odor?

How high did you track her progestrone level to last time? It's possible for her to be having a "split cycle" if her progestrone level did not rise high enough or wasn't maintained. If the bitch was bred, conception will usually fail, however, the owner will note that within 3 to 4 weeks the bitch is demonstrating signs of coming into season again. Thereafter, the bitch proceeds normally through the subsequent stages of reproduction. This condition is known as Split Estrus. Recurrent incidences of split estrus in a bitch, however, may suggest chronic premature luteolysis (inability to maintain sufficient elevation of the serum progesterone concentration) or an underlying health disorder such as hypothyroidism or uteran cysts.

I have never heard of a false pregnancy causing a bitch to come into season again.

 

[dee]

May want to track her progesterone through this cycle as this might be her true cycle--even if you're not going to breed her. Will be interesting to follow her through for the next couple months. Talk to your repro vet as to when to start testing and once she's spiked then you could probably wait a month and have another blood draw to check to see if she's maintaining her progesterone levels and then a final draw at about the time she'd be due to whelp--9 weeks post ovulation--give or take a day or two. What were her levels in August/Sept when you had her AI'd? How old is she and what form of AI did you have done? Surgical/vaginal/Transcervical?

dee

 

[Sherrie]

Thank you both for the help.
I am doing a progesterone test tomorrow.
She was AI'ed vaginally.
The discharge is blood and nothing like Pyo. I lost our Pom to Pyo so I am very familiar with it.
This girl was at 7ng two days before the first AI. There was no progesterone test done due to a Sunday and a holiday. She was bred on Labor Day. The second breeding was done on the 3rd day but the vet only did vaginal smears no progesterone. The vet felt from the smears she would still be good to conceive.

This is the second time we have tried breeding her. She was AI'ed for her previous heat cycle with a repo vet. she didn't conceive. The first time she was bred @ 9.6ng on a Saturday and on Monday the progesterone was 14.7 BUT no semen due to it being Monday. The vet felt the Saturday was to early and it was iffy on Tuesday. But without frozen semen we had no choice. The vet did another AI on Tuesday but felt it was to late from the vaginal smears. He did not do another progesterone test.

I think part of my problem is not making the vets continue doing the progesterone tests.
The two breedings were under two different vets.
This is driving me crazy. This girl is 4 and I don't want to loose this line.
I would like to fly her to North Carolina on her next cycle to try a natural breeding IF I can figure out ahead when that cycle might be.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Sherrie ~

Go to Google, and do a search on "frequent cycling in bitches." She will most probably not get bred this time either. A bitch has to stay out of season for at least 4.5months in order to conceive. They will even ovulate . . . it's maddening, I know. It's happened to me more than once. I found this for you.

4) Shortened Interestrous Interval:

Cycles that recur every four months or more frequently are considered abnormal.

Possible differential diagnoses for this problem can be investigated by answering the following questions.

Does the bitch ovulate? Determining the serum progesterone concentration will indicate whether frequent oestrus periods are associated with ovulations. If they are not, the bitch may be having a split heat. When she does ovulate, she should be fertile. Split heat is most frequently associated with young or pubertal bitches; it is therefore advisable to wait until the bitch is two to three years old before intervening.

Does the uterus have time to involute? In bitches that cycle every four months or less and ovulate, the uterus may not have time to recover from the previous cycle. A uterine environment that cannot support a pregnancy may develop. In such cases, one approach to management is to suppress estrus with mibolerone (cheque drops - Upjohn), an androgenic compound, administered orally for six months. Suppression of estrus will allow the uterus to involute completely. The bitch should be bred when estrus recurs after withdrawal of the drug.

Hope this helps.

 

[Sun Valley]

Sherrie,

More then likely a bitch that cycles frequently and especially a 4 year old bitch that's never had a litter will have cystic ovaries. I have gotten bitchs pregnant on short cycles , but they usually have smaller litters and then stop getting pregnant at all.
I would try doing a surgical implant where the Vet can actually see the condition of the uterus and deal with cysts if there are any.

Lou Ann

 

[sarnewfie]

When i ran progesterone, i did every other day starting on day five of her cycle, we were able to nail them by doing that and consistantly using the same progesterone tests and numbers.
it helps with someone in the know wich you are doing, but, it also helps no matter how much the cost bites, to run the progesterone testing all the way thru. we also did cytology, and we pretty much were even as far as cornified and progesterone numbers.
this current breeding we did, we only used cytology but, i would not recommend that alone unless someone has done a few consecutive breedings succesfully with both cytology and progesterone.

i would suggest skipping this heat cycle.
Booty was samiliar to this girl, but, prolly not the same.
we spayed her now.
If you like i can get the progesterone numbers we ran thru the succesful breeding of our very last litter wich was the penny hawk breeding we did.
But, the progesterone tests we use may be different than yours. Ours are done at the marshfield clinic.

Lou ann
do they see the cysts by using ultrasound?
would they have not seen that when they looked for the pups?

 

[Sherrie]

Lisa,
Thank you I will study that today. It looks very helpfull.

Lou Ann,
I did have her Ultrasounded and the ovaries looked normal.
This is the only time she has done this. Her normal cycles are every 5-6 month. She had a VERY bad experience with the last attempt at breeding and I am wondering if this could have been caused by stress. She hasn't even gone 3 months from the last cycle yet.

Sarnewfie,
What level was the progesterone when you bred? I am thinking I am going to early.

She is not going to be bred this cycle. I just want to figure out what is going on and why she would again be in heat less thn a month from the last one. I do plan on calling the repo vet in Abilene
Kansas today IF I can get hold of him.

Thank you all so much for the suggestions.

 

[dee]

I agree with Lou Ann--time to try a surgical so the vet can see the ute and ovaries. And if there are uterine cysts--the vet can pop them at time of insemination.

dee

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

I actually think you were late on that first breeding. I usually breed closer to 5. I agree with the others that a surgical implant might be your best option next time, especially that as they get older they get less fertile.

 

[Ivoryudx]

Its pretty much gauranteed that you will not find out exactly why your girl came in on a short cycle, if its truly a short cycle. It could also be a split heat, where this is the fertile cycle. The science just isn't there in the dog world, to know for sure, although there are A LOT of OPINIONS on the subject.

There are A LOT of things that can effect cycles, implantation, and fertility in general. Even being around other bitches coming into season can cause them to come in prematurely.

Its VERY difficult for a Vet to see the Ovaries with an Ultrasound, let alone see if there are any problems. When doing an implant they do not go deep enough to look at the ovaries. They can only look at the condition of the Uterus (lesions/cysts) as well as check for strictures, that might cause problems with normal AI's, ties and birthing. Most short cycling 'starts' with the pituitary gland not keeping a correct clock, which triggers cycles. So the rest is basically resulting conditions that are brought on by two short of a time between cycles. Its a catch 22 scenario. Thats why they suggest the season suppression drugs (Cheque Drops) to try and get the needed time to recover. That time being 120 days (some say 117 days) between cycles for the uterus to heal from slothing off the cells.

You might want to check out the other thread that started about Dr Huchinson and went on to discuss Progesterone Levels.

http://www.newf.net/Forums/showthread.php?t=54377

By checking Progesterone after you breed your just verifying that a pregnancy can be maintained, as a bitches progesterone should stay elevated above 4 for roughly 60 days after ovulation weather they are bred or not. This will not tell you why she did not conceive, only that she can maintain after implantation of the embrios. If it does not hold for 60 days your then looking at weather you really want to breed her at all, given the need to Progesterone Supplementation to maintain the pregnancy, which is very controversial due to being risky.

From the Progesterone Numbers that you have posted here, I would say you bred too late. It doesn't matter how HIGH the number goes, you want to pinpoint 1.5-2 (see what was wrote in the other thread in the above link) and then that NORMALLY doubles in two days, to 4-5 then you breed two days later. Just keep in mind that not every bitch will be 4-5 in two days, but that Ova has been released and the cycle has begun. You just want the numbers to continue to rise but they can fluctuated from day to day.

One thing I have found in my search on this subject is the lack of science behind the different theories presenting in Canine Repro. Most breeders and Vets will tell you to spay her and move on to the next girl, instead of trying to find the reason behind it. Its a difficult subject.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Sar ~

In answer to your question; no, they cannot see uterine cysts via ultrasound. Only if they go in surgically. That's why Lou Ann suggested the implant.

 

[dee]

Going along with Susan--if your girl was bred two days post a progesterone level of 7ng via vaginal AI..yeah, you were probably too late. Ideally, it would have been better to do a surgical at that time as a surgicial is usally performed three days post ovulation if one considers 5+ng point of ovulation. Any idea when she started her 'rise' ie..2.0ng or higher? That is said to correlate with the LH surge and also may be taken into consideration when determining insemination timing. But regardless, you're still having to deal with this short cycle, so odds are she wasn't going to conceive. It is good you're taking her in for a repro exam.

Good luck!

dee

 

[sarnewfie]

This is advice from an oldie in the breed (not me )
after they hit number 2 in progesterone, "she" breeds day five and after.
i usually start when they hit 2 for fear of missing.
but i do go thru with Ai past the day five.

 

[Sherrie]

Thank you all for the help. My vet here checked her over the day before yesterday. She cannot find anything wrong (she is not a repo vet). I do have a call in to my Repo Vet in Abilene Kansas (8 hours from me). The progesterone test came back .4 . I am going to do another and just follow this through for my curiosity.
You all maybe right that she was bred to late. She was acting very much the hussy much earlier than when she was bred. I have talked to several people that have had a flukey cycle that returned to normal. I guess time will tell.
On the subject of ultrasound I would totally agree about not seening cysts IF this was done by my vet. Elle was done at a large human clinic with human ultrasound equiptment and by a registered sonographer. There was no ovarian cysts per radiologist. This ultrasound was extremely different that the one done by my vet. There is a big difference in the equiptment and the training of the operator (technologist). Ovarian Cysts are routinely ultrasounded and found on women.