aggressive ? pack order? or just me?

[buddy]

Sorry this may be lengthy.....We have a 8 1/2 month old male newfoundland, Buddy. Just my husband, myself, and Buddy in the house. Although I think that order is changing to my husband, Buddy, then me. (We do have a cat who now only lives upstairs) We spent a long time deciding if we should get a dog, and what kind. I was especially cautious because I have a very healthy fear of dogs, too many bad experiences when I was younger. We decided on a newfoundland because of their temperment, but we took another 3 years of research before we made the leap. Then he came home, at 10 weeks old, sweet little puppy. He started out to be my dog, I walked him, fed him, trained him. He sits, stays, walks on a leash, and is generally very loveable. (and thinks everyone should love him too!) I have spent some time at a local kennel, they train springers. Everything has been fine until....my husband is now home from work for the winter, so Buddy has become "his" dog. Their has been 4 instances of Buddy behaving aggressively towards us, mostly me. Today being the worst. The first time was over a pigs ear, growling at both of us when we went near him. Those got taken away, and he no longer gets them. 2nd time was while I was petting him. I had been petting him for about 5 or 10 minutes, when I quit and sat back in my chair he did kind of a growling and snapping at me, which quite surprised me. 3rd time he was chewing on a big meaty bone, that time he growled and moved towards me, my husband stepped in. This morning, while chewing on the same type of bone he acutally came at me, I grabbed him at skin around his neck, to hold him, I then made my husband take him outside, had I let go, he would have come at me again. Any other time he is just fine. I can take his food dish way without problem..........He was just fixed last week, maybe this will help? Obviously he will no longer get the big raw bones anymore....any other idea's before this gets worse? I scares me to think it could have been a little kid instead of me. Also, of course, I reacted in a fearful way the last 3 times this happened, which I'm sure doesn't help. Again sorry this is so long, but I don't want to get rid of my dog, he really is sweet "most" of the time.....
(P.S. He now weighs 90 pounds)


Jennifer

 

[Miyax]

Jennifer,

You should get some very sound advice here. Unfortunately, I don't think I can contribute much to help you. I am a first time Newfy owner and my boy reached eight-months-old last Tuesday. I researched the breed for a long time too. Frankly, I've never heard of a Newf behaving this way under normal circumstances. I'm sure it's as shocking to you as it is to me considering you chose this breed for the hallmark gentle, loving dispositions.

I thought immediately that perhaps a health issue may be the cause. Even some kind of imbalance possibly? I know that sounds drastic but, to me, this behavior is quite extreme for a Newf. Because of the breeds non-aggressive disposition, even if a Newf sensed fear, I don't think it would ordinarily spark or reinforce aggressive behavior. Have you mentioned this behavior to your vet? It's truely puzzling and distressing.

The only other suggestion I can offer is, barring a medical issue causing this behavior, seek the services of a canine behavioral specialist.

Again, please wait for the other, far more experienced owners to respond. They are a wealth of information and very kind to boot! I responded primarily to let you know we are here and listening and care.

My very best wishes,
Miyax

------------------
A tribute to his Newfoundland:
"... beauty without vanity
strength without insolence
courage without ferocity
and all the virtues of man without his vices"
- Lord Byron, 1808

 

[buddy]

Thanks so much for your response! I'm a little hearsick over this.

I think "surprise" may be part of the problem. He is usually so easy, so when he has behaved aggressively, I indeed react surprised. The only medical problem he has had has been a little bit of a wandering limp. When the vet checked him he noticed a low grade fever, treated him with omoxicillan, and then last Monday he was neutered. Again, I want to stress this behavior appears to be more towards me.

Jennifer

 

[HPond]

Hi Jennifer,
I am more of an experience Newf lover than an experienced Newf owner (puppy due soon...) but I wanted to give you my support. Just from what I've read here, it could be a behavioral problem for which a getting a trainer/behaviorist is a very good idea. Or physical--he may be a little irritated with the neutering and other med he was taking for his fever. I read from a post long ago, that if you spit in his food or lick his biscuits, to establish your alpha standing, that helps. (one of GAD's posts.)

My thoughts are with you, and I hope the situation improves. It's always hard to hear when loving Newfies act out of character since they are known to be so gentle. Please keep us posted.

 

[HPond]

Jennifer,
I posted the old post that I mentioned in 'general discussion' for you.

(I just did that so it would be more visible.)


[This message has been edited by HPond (edited 02-24-2002).]

 

[buddy]

Thank You so much...I'll give it try!

Sorry, I'm new to posting, I guess I put my post in the wrong section.

 

[mochaspa]

Hi Jennifer,
Suki, our 5 month old newfie, is our second newfie, so my wife and I, along with our girls, have about 13 years of newfie experience...but I'm not sure what to tell you about Buddy. I'm sure that you're aware of "alpha dog and pack leader" behaviour amongst ALL dogs, newfies included...and it sounds like there's some of this going on with Buddy...that his perception is that he has established pecking order in his family, with your husband as alpha dog, then him, and then you following as subordinate under him. And he seems to be underlining that when he acts aggressively towards you...But, while this behaviour should be considered "normal" for most dogs, it is not typical in newfies. I agree that you really need to contact some type of professional, experienced in dog behaviour, and, in particular, EXPERT in newfie behaviour, in order to make sure that Buddy understands AND ACCEPTS you as his superior. We all brought newfies into our lives and homes because of their legendary gentleness and sweet dispostion, but we must always remember and respect the fact that they are still dogs, and, at their size, they can be extremely dangerous if they are serious with their threats and aggressiveness. Good luck, keep us posted, and please take care.

Geoff

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

Jenneifer,
This behavior sounds just like my husky I had years ago. But for a husky, that's more typical and she also was an alpha dog. We worked through it until we had children. The vet told us it wasn't worth taking a chance so we found another home for her. But this sounds very unusual for a newf. My vet did tell me though, in a conversation about newfs, that he has heard of an occasional one being mean. Rare but not unheard of. Buddy definately sounds like an alpha dog although not all alpha dogs are mean. I would go back to the breeder for advice or your vet. But it doesn't sound like that there is a lot you can do. I tried all kinds of trainers and nothing helped. I hope you will be able to bring out that gentle newf in there somewhere. By the way, it doesn't sound like anything you are doing, although a dog can sense fear. So the more aggressive he gets and the more fearful you get, one characteristic may be feuling the other. I hope everything works out for you.
Lynn

 

[buddy]

I should mention he has been evaluated by a trainer and determined to be a very mild dog. In grooming sessions his reports come back with an A+, for condition and behavior. He does exhibit some submissive peeing upon seeing new people or when he gets excited. When he is calm I can roll him on his back, rub his belly, play with his feet, with not much reaction. He is not allowed on furniture or in beds either. The aggressive moments are not very often, but seem to be around those "treats", bones and pigs ears. He takes bisquit type treats very carefully from your hand. Although he has been known to get on the kitchen counter and steal a meatloaf.

Jennifer

 

[Jeannie]

Jennifer,
This is a problem you need to address NOW. I got Samantha from rescue on her first birthday. She was VERY aggressive--even bit her previous owners. They had thought of putting her to sleep because she was so aggressive.

Here is what I did. It took about 2 weeks before she changed her attitude. Anytime she behaved in any unacceptable manner, I immediately put her in a submissive position. A submissive postition is: dog on side lying on the ground and you on top--literely on top of the dog. Get in the dogs face and growl or yell at him. You will have to hold him down at first by putting weight on his neck and flank areas. Growling and biting calls for aggressive submssion--same thing as submission but when you put the dog down do it very forcefully and quickly. Many times I had to grab Sam by her neck and quickly take her to the ground. When you get the dog to the ground and you are on top MAKE eye contact. This is showing the dog that you are alpha. Make the dog stay in the submissive position until he/she stops struggling. I have seen dogs get so mad they fight till they pee and poop, but don't let them up till they give in. I know this sounds harsh, but growling and biting are not to be taken lightly--especially from a big dog.

Since your reaction to the dog's attutude has been one of fear--he knows that he is alpha over you. At first your husband, being the alpha may have to assert the submission, but you will have to do it sooner or later to establish that the ranking order is: dog last no matter what.

If you watch wild animal shows even in play the alpha is on top and the submissive one is lying on his side on the ground.

It does work. The first time I did it to Sam she was so surprised that she didn't know how to react. The second time she fought back, after that it was just a contest to see if I would back off. As I said it does work. Sam is a therapy dog at Children's hospital as well as going to many day care centers. She is a sweet but spirited girl. Forgot to mention that you can do this is play also. As far as play--no tug of war or anything where he wins--that too is an alpha thing.

Good Luck.

------------------
Jeannie and the rescues
Sara, Samantha and Panda
www.newfland.com

 

[Kanela]

Jeannie has it right, Jennifer. Take her advice.

After you've worked on showing your pooch who's boss, here's an exceptional book that I recommend all dog guardians read: The Dog Who Loved Too Much written by Dr. Nicholas Dodman, professor of many years at Crufts Veterinary University. The link takes you to a site that lets you compare different prices on this book.

One of the first things the good doctor addresses is DOG AGGRESSION i.e. growling, food guarding, snapping...even in "gentle" dogs. The solutions and instructions are very clear and it covers pert near every behaviorial problem known in canines. Wonderful, WONDERFUL book.

Good luck and please let us in on any updates with your Newfy. Barring a health problem, her innate gentleness should come out and she'll have blossomed into that Gentle Giant Newfies are renowned to be.

Kanela

------------------
"To err is human.
To forgive, canine."
Newfieland.org

 

[windyhill]

I'd encourage you to get "The Newfoundland Puppy: Early Care, Early Training." You can get it at sweetbay.com It opens a whole new world into doggy psyche. While you're waiting for the book, immediate action must be taken! You've described your corrections such as taking the treats away and putting him outside, but this doesn't change your status in the "pack," and he probably doesn't recognize that as a correction. Jeannie's suggestions are super, she has a lot of experience with this, and I'd encourage you to continue seeking her advice. Another thought is for you to get a dog treat and sit down, thoroughly "enjoying" it, but not letting your boy near it. After a few days of doing this, let him have some, but not all of it, and take it away when you want. If he becomes aggressive, immediately put him in a submissive position. If he behaves appropriately, praise him and reward him.
Hindsight is 20/20, of course, as one of the dogs I once had was definitely in charge of me, but as she wasn't aggressive, I never recognized it. I know better now, and my dogs since then have been wonderful companions. Dogs relish order...because you become dominant over them does not mean you are cruel, they are just happy to know where in the pack they belong.

I wish you the best, keep us updated.

 

[buddy]

When I first got Buddy I used to put him on his back frequently. I quit doing that for awhile because in one of the books I read they said that doing this can encourage aggressive behavior. Today after reading some of your postings we went outside and I put him on his side/back. Of course he didn't much appreciate it, he struggled and I could hear his stomache start to rumble. This lasted for about 10 minutes, then he was fine. We did it again later in the living room, struggled less. I do want to stress the Buddy has never taken food from my hand without permission. We eat in front of him all the time, he never aggressively goes after our food at all. Although he has managed to perfect "the I am starving" look and pouts. Any food offered from our hands is taken very gently. I will keep working on it and get the books recommended. Will keep you posted. For now will keep rolling, spitting and I will be the only one to feed.

Thanks again and I very much welcome any other idea's...I know at heart he is a very sweet dog with a few very bad moments that aren't acceptable.

Jennifer, Newfie owner in progress!

 

[buddy]

Spoke too soon. While I was typing my last post, Buddy stole my chair...again. Did I mention that. Growled at me when I told him to get down. I put him on his back, seemed much faster this time, although sure gives me the "eye". Maybe I should have stuck with cats.

Still Trying.

 

[Kanela]

KEEP TRYING AND DON'T GIVE UP! Correct Buddy immediately after he shows aggression. You have to be lightning fast, just like the Alpha dog in wolf packs in the wild. Even when he starts to misbehave in an unacceptable manner, flip him on his back, find your inner beast and growl for all you're worth. Really loud and menacing. He won't like it - no dogs like it - but he'll shape up a lot sooner than you think. Dogs have an innate need to know what order they belong in in their "pack". If you leave it up to them, they'll just shrug their furry shoulders and think, "Ok! I guess I'll be Alpha, then!" and proceed to terrorize your house.

We're here to support you whenever you need us, day or night. I'm on all the time (I have no life to speak of *laugh*) and if anything, can provide a shoulder.

Keep that chin up! Let Buddy know YOU'RE running things now and he'd better shape up if he doesn't want more of that alpha roll and no treats!

Kanela

------------------
"To err is human.
To forgive, canine."
Newfieland.org

[This message has been edited by Kanela (edited 02-24-2002).]

 

[Miyax]

My obedience instructors recommended hand-feeding ALL of their food/meals - each and every bite - for two weeks to help assert "your role as alpha". They said that when the dog is fed in a bowl he controls that food. When you have control over the food - by hand feeding - it reinforces your alpha status. I overheard two of the owners in our class telling the instructors that within a week to a week and a half it made a huge difference in their dogs "attitude" and bettered their relationship with them. Their dogs were rather unruly in the beginning. You could tell the difference even in class. I'm not sure if it was the hand-feeding or that they were just working with them regularly due to the "homework" we got in this class.

Just thought I'd toss that in.

It might help in conjunction with everything else. *crossing fingers* for ya

- Miyax

------------------
A tribute to his Newfoundland:
"... beauty without vanity
strength without insolence
courage without ferocity
and all the virtues of man without his vices"
- Lord Byron, 1808

 

[misamala00]

You've got some very sound advice by now, I would just like to express my point of view. I thing Buddy is just in the period when he's ranking himself in your pack. It's normal for most of the dogs, specially males. Maybe not so newf like, but newfs are dogs too!
Probably the fact that your husband is home also contributed as the structure that the dog knew before is now changed and the dog saw that as an opportunity to get higher in this hierarhy. It's on you to show him his position. The alpha rolle sounds good - just make sure he doesn't get up until he's completely calm! Also the feeding from hands. These's something else that's very important for establishing the dominance - the rules that you have and which dog HAVE to folow. Those are simple everyday rules - like maybe he's not allowed on the chouch or on your bed - you should never brake those rules! If you don't have those rules and the dog is allowed everything it's probably a good idea to establish some now.

And do get some professional help. We don't know your dog, we can just offer same advice, but this person can really observe the dog and your behavior - so he/she can really get to the reall problem.

Good luck with Buddy

Mirjam & Misha

 

[Jeannie]

Jennifer,
You are doing the right thing. Keep it up. It took 2 weeks for Sam to come around. Don't get discouraged


------------------
Jeannie and the rescues
Sara, Samantha and Panda
www.newfland.com

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

Just thought I'd throw in something else I had heard once. Apparently WHEN a dog is fed is important. Since the alpha dog in the wild always eats first, and the subordinate ones get what's left, you should always feed Buddy AFTER you eat. I don't know your feeding pattern, but if you're feeding Buddy before you eat, that could be reinforcing his alpha dog status. Everything is worth a try, at this point. It will be worth it in the long run. Good luck.
Lynn

 

[buddy]

Hi!
Started hand feeding Buddy today. Wasn't interested this morning, but was hungry enough at lunch. Ate from my had just fine, very gentle and the same for this evening. Doesn't take the food until I say "okay", and made no attempt to go for the bowl or get bossy. I see the obedience instructor on Saturday. Removed all rawhides and raw bones. Hopefully things will go well!

Thanks for all the advice, you guys have been GREAT! Will keep you posted.

Jennifer