WRDX Unconscious Victim Question

[lapage24]

Anyone have any thoughts on teaching Hera to grab the life jacket and push rather than grabbing by the hand and pulling?

She can do this exercise the traditional way by pulling the hand, but there are 2 things I don't like about it. The first is that she bites too hard which is really because of the 2nd problem which is how hard she has to pull. She is an 85 pound newf pulling 180 pounds of person through the water. I can see how much work it is for her and am just wondering if I can make it any easier on her.

I'm really just considering other options to make it easier for her. My boyfriend who was a lifeguard and US swimmer mentioned that it's always easier to push someone through the water than it is to pull them.

 

[janices]

I had to find a pic of this. So, Hera is not doing this?

Notice they're actually pushing the person in.

 

[lapage24]

She can do it, but I think pushing may be more efficient for her. See how the dogs butt ends up under the victim? IMO it makes it more difficult to pull the person.

I had to find a pic of this. So, Hera is not doing this?

 

[janices]

Butt is not under victim. Actually swimming at side.

 

[lapage24]

Well I'll try to get some video, but I think you can imagine how the angle where the dog's butt gets under the victim can happen. And this is what happens for Hera.

 

[janices]

When we train starting out have the person wiggle hand want them to grab so when they grab they can stay in good angle swimming. Try that.

 

[lapage24]

When we train starting out have the person wiggle hand want them to grab so when they grab they can stay in good angle swimming. Try that.

Can you explain a little more?

She knows how to grab the hand and everything, but when she starts to pull she ends up with her butt under the person.

 

[lapage24]

The other problem is that she bites very hard while she's pulling. She's not being malicious, she just needs a good grip to be able to pull the person to me. However, I've been told that there are judges who will fail a dog if they cause discomfort or put any marks on the steward. She's not drawing blood but it's still quite uncomfortable.

 

[twright1231]

She's not drawing blood but it's still quite uncomfortable.

I know nothing at all about water rescue. I wish I did. But it would seem to me that quite uncomfortable is better than dead.:ah:

I'm not trying to be snarkey, but I do wonder why a judge would score low for that. It is life-saving, after all.

Glad you want to make it easier for Hera

 

[lapage24]

I know nothing at all about water rescue. I wish I did. But it would seem to me that quite uncomfortable is better than dead.:ah:

I'm not trying to be snarkey, but I do wonder why a judge would score low for that. It is life-saving, after all.

Glad you want to make it easier for Hera

It drives me nuts! I would rather lose a pinky finger than drown. But the stewards comfort does have to be considered or we would run out of people to steward this exercise. SENC is fortunate to have an awesome steward who would never say anything even if the dog broke a bone.

I really think the best thing to do would be to fill the glove with a mannequin hand or something and let the dog grab that, because it's still hand-like, the steward wouldn't experience any discomfort and if you're unconscious you wouldn't feel it anyway.

 

[2Paws]

"Upon reaching the victim, the dog MUST take either of the protected arms or hands, or the lifejacket of the victim into its mouth, using a gentle hold, and will tow the victim to almost wading depth for the dog. " taken from WRDX rules and regulations.

You could train this way if you feel this would work better for your dog. I would be concerned about all the variables of life jackets used by various stewards at tests for this exercise which would change the picture for your dog. But if you are planning on only testing at one site and you know what equipment will be used then this may not be an issue for you.

One of our dogs in our group weighs 80 lbs and can do this exercise by bringing in the victim by the gloved hand. She earned her WRDX last year. I don't believe size is an issue with any of these exercises. She had a horrible grip and her handler trained her how to hold the glove between her canine and back molars while pulling the victim in.

The bite is a training issue and can be easily corrected. Get in the water and be the victim. When she takes your hand, tell her "easy". As soon as she lightens her grip, praise her. Keep working with her until she holds it the way you want her too. This is also something you could do on land with her.

We've had to do this with several of the dogs in our group and it works. Most of the stewards for this exercise will endure a broken hand rather than fail a dog from complaining about the hold but it's still a good thing to train for. We don't tolerate it while training.

 

[Prdmary]

You beat me to it Sue! Ha! I started typing and then my patient showed up!

I'm having a hard time visualizing where she will hold the life jacket....and like Sue said, every steward is going to have a different type of jacket and will look different to her. So if she is used to grabbing this one certain strap or corner of the one you're training with, chances are it won't be the same on the test steward.

I agree with Sue, I don't think the size or weight of the dog is the problem. Once she makes the initial tug to get the body moving, she should do just fine.

Does she know the word "easy"? How does she do when you just give her a treat? Does she snatch it from you or does she take it gently? You may need to teach her what the word means.

Like Sue mentioned, I practiced on land. I would have someone stand with the gloves on and have them go take them by the glove, then they would walk with the dog as they brought them back. It is good like Sue said if YOU are the steward and can tell them to be easy, but again, they need to understand what that word means.

Do you talk to her after she has the glove in hand? Unless she understands the word easy, I wouldn't say anything at all. The more you talk to them, sometimes the more they clamp down! Ha! Don't be too enthusiastic after she has the glove in hand....clapping, etc.

I use "soft mouth training dummies" rather than hard dummies for training also. Don't know if that helps.....but I think they don't feel like they have to clamp down as hard on soft bumpers.

You might try to find someone who trains retrievers for hunting purposes.....they train them to use soft mouths to not damage the game they are retrieving.....and might could give you some ideas. (Then you could share with us too! Ha!)

I have heard of people training their dogs to gently pick up an egg and bringn it to their hand without breaking it......I can't imagine EVER getting Turner or any of my dogs to NOT eat the egg! Ha!

 

[lapage24]

It's not the initial bite that is hard. Once she has the hand in her mouth and starts pulling she really clamps down. It's like the harder she's swimming, the harder she holds the hand.

I've tried putting my hand in her mouth and telling her to hold. She'll do it and it doesn't hurt it at all. It's the pulling part that makes her bite hard.

She does know the meaning of the word easy and I've tried that, but she seemed to not want to take the hand again after telling her easy. She knows there's a hand in the glove and she doesn't want to bite it to begin with, but she does because I ask her to, but then when I tell her "easy" I think she realizes she's hurting the person so she lets go completely. With food when I say easy she just takes it more gently. So in that context she knows what the word means. I think she is sensitive to the fact that she can hurt people by biting them.

I'm just having trouble finding a middle ground. She has to bite the hand which she doesn't want to do to begin with. Then she has to bite hard enough to be able to tow the person without the hand slipping out of her mouth, but not so hard that she hurts the person. It's just a tough thing to teach.

 

[Ivoryudx]

Never make the judge think!

The rule states:

and will tow the victim

Pushing is not towing, and you don't want a judge to fail you on a technical word in the rules. I would not be trying to teach my dog to 'push' but I would be working my dog to do as others have suggested here. Newfoundlands are supposed to be 'soft mouthed' which means they can hold things in their mouth without leaving a mark. It goes back to not killing the victim in the process of saving them. Retrievers in general are to be soft mouth as they are to return the duck without harming it. Thats why its an important issue in this exercise.

 

[Ivoryudx]

Just more thoughts...

How does she do with other people? Sometimes they will bite harder on a stranger than their mom, and maybe you can change the word your using to convey to her that its the biting harder that is the problem. Another thing to think about is the timing of her biting harder. Is it just when she starts swimming harder, or is it when you verbally praise? Sometimes getting excited with praise will cause them to bite down harder.

 

[2Paws]

I'm a chatter box when I'm training my dogs and even at tests I'm constantly talking to my dogs. With this exercise, I keep my voice very low and calm. The more excited you talk the harder they can bite down. Also they will really clamp down once they are walking so it's very important that you are out there in the water and ready to take the victim as soon as the dog's feet touch the lake bottom.

We had this problem with one of the dogs last year. Little Miss Brite may be 82 lbs soaking wet and the sweetest girl but oh......she really clamped down when towing in the dead floaty person. My Henry was afraid to hang on to the glove if he detected a finger. So we started training with the steward leaving the fingers out of the glove until the dog was comfortable holding it while towing. We then gradually add fingers but also taught them where to position the glove in their mouth - between the canine and back molar. This year they all remember and we have very nice holds without undue pressure on the fingers.

I do believe many stewards at the WRDX tests will position their fingers so they are not all the way into the glove.

 

[Cascadians]

Our neighbor with the lab pup is training him for hunting. He says they use a pine cone wrapped in a hand towel to teach the pup not to bite down hard on retrieves. He now uses a soft solid cloth tube on a rope, tube doused with duck scent. His pup was a persistent biter so they trained him to be soft with all his many toys and they actually pried his mouth and made his jaws lessen pressure several times a day. Dog is very well trained now.

 

[lapage24]

Thank you for all of your great advice! I will definitely keep all of this in mind while we train this exercise over the summer.

 

[pecanpiepatti]

It may be the turn that is troublesome; we watched a dog grab the gloved hand, then spin the whole body around by making a big turn, so that she didn't have to make such a tight turn to head back to shore; was pretty cool!