what can I do for optimal breeding?

[brookside]

Okay, now.
My Polly has been bred 2 times and has never conceived. i went to repro vet and told her about her short (3 month) seasons and last year she got check drops (no help) and this year she got a shot to prolong her time between seasons (something that is used alot in Europe) and so far so good. She is now on month 5 and should go into season in beginning of January.
My Lucy was bred, looked pregnant but no puppies. She was stressed out (I think) because my poor Fitch (now deceased because of his bad heart) would literally tear into her on a weekly basis and I believe that could have caused her to absorb. so she is scheduled to go into season in January too.
My questions are: what cann I do to optimize their health during this time before they go into season again? Should I have them vaccinated? (never vacinnated after puppy shots except for the rabies shots). Should I have some blood tests run? If so, what types? Any special vitamins? I want to make their little girl lives sooo healthy that they have puppies because I NEED a PUPPY OR TWO!! both girls have alllllll their clearances and are beautiful and if they are infertile I'll be bummed cuz that will mean starting over again and I'm too old for that. any advise would be appreciated

 

[DreamTime Newfs]

I had problems getting Mandea bred. I bred her for 2 cycles(AI's) and nothing. Last time I put her on Baytil as soon as she came into season and left her on it until we did a transcervical on her and she had 6 puppies.
The Vet said her cervix was very large and it would be very difficult for the sperm to get to where they needed to go so this is more then likely the reason she did not get pregnant with the AI's.
I am not sure if you already tried surgical methods but the trancervical worked for me.
I also ran a thyroid on her prior to breeding her and had it sent off to Michigan to make sure there was nothing going on there but her thyroid is functioning normally.

 

[brookside]

with Polly I have done a surgical implant and AI. With Lucy it was a transcervical but I didn't use the baytril, I used amoxycillin I think. Thanks Renee. You'll have to PM me when you have the next litter, I think I may be buying my next puppy

 

[Sun Valley]

Becky,

Have you had their thyroid checked? Short cycling bitches are more difficult to get bred and are at more of a risk for pyo. Some also will present with cysts. Which is why a surgical implant can benefit so the Vet can pop the cysts and have look at what's going on.

That said, I think most breeder's have had short cyclers...I know I have. Like Renee said I would use Baytril or Cypro as soon as they come in heat. If you do happen to get them bred, you should keep them bred as they also tend to have smaller litters.

What have their progesterone numbers been when your breeding them? It makes me crazy that so so many vets are insisting bitches all ovulate when the number hits 5..I totally disagree and would never have puppies if I followed that theory. I think Renee can also attest to that.

Good Luck.
Lou Ann

 

[DreamTime Newfs]

Yes, please let us know what her their progesterone numbers were. Lou Ann is the guru regarding proper breeding times. If it was not for her my girls would have never gotten pregnant. My Vet wanted me to breed way too early.

 

[brookside]

Hi Rennee and LouAnn
I bred my Polly (surgical implant) when she was 2 days past 5 (she was about a 10)...she didn't take but she had only 3 months cycles at that time. I then waited a year, did the check drops and she bled through at 4 months, bred her at 17, no puppies, and then again she came in at 4 months, did 2 AI right before the national and no puppies (the unusual thing about this one is my friend who did the breeding to her male is quite adept at this but during the process she dropped the tubing on the ground before she inserted it and I have always wondered if that made a difference). Now Polly is on that shot and she is holding at 4.5 months with no season even though the chinese crested thinks she's in season (I did a progesterone and it was the normal low). Since the shot in September, he thinks she's in season it is disgusting.
With Lucy, I bred her with surgical insemination at close to 17 and only did it once. Maybe that was the problem but I also think it could have been stress that made her resorb. Lucy has a season every 4-5 months. I am going to do a surgical on her next time.
With Polly I wonder if i should also do a surgical or just a natural?? I don't want to be throwing more good money out the door. What do you think I should do, especially with Polly as I am pretty set with lucy and the surgical insemination

 

[brookside]

correction on the above....Lucy has a TRANSCERVICAL insemination and was only done once and it was around 17.

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

I just went to a reproduction seminar last week and they said technically you should breed 2 days after the progesterone level reaches 5 ng BUT the LH surge is really what determines the best time to breed. Looking at vaginal smear slides to determine cornification is also helpful when coordinated with the progesterone level. Also they said to never give antibiotics before breeding as they can become drug resistant if they need it otherwise. Georgie short cycled when I bred her and she did get pregnant. My other vet said not to vaccinate before breeding as it can cause infertility issues. So there does seem to be lots of theories and ideas on this topic. One thing these vets kept saying is that the dogs do not read the books and many times they have to be looked at on an individual basis.

 

[brookside]

Another thing i didn't mention, my Polly always gets hot spots over the ovaries when it comes near her season. Has anyone ever heard of that???

 

[DreamTime Newfs]

In my opinion(and I was taught by the best-Lou Ann):devil2: 5 is not a magic number. We wait until we see a big rise and then breed 2-3 days after the rise. For example, one of my girls was at a 5.2 one day and then she went up to 10 the next day. I bred her the following day(which was 2 days after the rise). After I bred her I had them do a progesterone test and she was over 20.This dramatic rise indicated that she ovulated.
As far as antibiotics, most Vets are against this but several breeders recommend giving Baytril before breeding.
It is expensive but I have had good luck with having several progesterone tests done. It is so important to catch the rise.
You should not do 2 surgicals. If you get the timing right and there is nothing wrong with the bitch you should be fine.
One of my bitches also short cycled prior to having a litter. I bred her with AI's and she had 7 puppies. If it is not a thyroid problem, I honestly think that you are having a timing issue Becky.
As far as the hot spots, hormones can cause everything to go out of whack.

 

[Sun Valley]

Becky, First, what are hot spots on her ovaries?? And what were the progesterone numbers before you did the breeding, how did the bitch rise? And also how was the semen on the males?

Hey Lynn, you and Janet can breed all you want at those numbers., )..I just know what works for my girls and I never get puppies when the numbers are that low...you also should do a follow up progesterone test to make sure the numbers are high.

My girls are always in the double digits and teens and sometimes higher when I breed them. Every bitch is going to be different and so will her numbers.

Lou Ann

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

Becky, First, what are hot spots on her ovaries?? And what were the progesterone numbers before you did the breeding, how did the bitch rise? And also how was the semen on the males?

Hey Lynn, you and Janet can breed all you want at those numbers., )..I just know what works for my girls and I never get puppies when the numbers are that low...you also should do a follow up progesterone test to make sure the numbers are high.

My girls are always in the double digits and teens and sometimes higher when I breed them. Every bitch is going to be different and so will her numbers.

Lou Ann

I agree with you, Lou Ann. You are saying what they said at the seminar.

 

[brookside]

Lou Ann
For Polly, when she gets near her season (about a month before), she will get hot spots on her back in the area that would correlate to where her ovaries would be.
Regarding her ovulation numbers, I don't remember exactly what they were but they were low, reached 5, I waited 2 days, did progesterone again and it was in the mid teens and on her second day of breeding, another progesterone was done and it was in the 20's. When I did the surgical implant on her, it definitely was 17.
For Lucy, when she reached 5, I waited 2 days, went to Dr. Greer, had a transcervical implant and the progesterone was done and it was 18. I only did the transcervical once. The semen was collected the night before and stored at the clinic and was tested the day of collection and the day of the transcervical and it was high in its count (don't remember the numbers exactly).
The irony of all this is presently, besides just getting done with breast cancer, they are NOW checking ME for ovarian cancer because I have a large cyst. There definitely IS irony in this but definitely no humor. Say a little prayer. I just think sometimes a cyst is just a cyst even though it is septated and I hope my gut instinct is correct. I don't need any more challenges this year.

 

[sarnewfie]

I always went by my male, even though he was not used on her, a cornification, and progesterone. always i have done AI with the ones who took it worked fine. I did not use baytril or cypro but used eurythromyacin or another one, i cant recall ATM but all in all i avoided transcervical.
I can see where that can come in handy for a short cycler.
I always had girls ranging from cycling every 4 months to 5 months.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

I've never used progesterone testing, but have had bitches brought here when the progesterone said "breed", and they didn't catch. Interestingly, the male that we used said they were not "right"...and we had to use another bitch as a teaser to ejaculate him for those girls....he didn't give a damn what their progesterone said, they were NOT breedable. (And, they growled and snapped at the boys.) I've always used smears and really, asking the boys what THEY think. A lot of time an experienced stud dog has been THE one to listen to for me, and before i would travel...I always ask the older boys what THEY think... and pay a LOT of attention to the bitches behaviour. I also wonder, though, in the back of my mind..if all of this technology is in the best interest of the breed, because if dogs are really difficult to get bred, is that trait going to carry through to their offspring?

 

[Sun Valley]

Cindy,

I don't have stud dogs nor do I keep males here, so I don't have the luxury of letting males tell me when to breed. When I take my girls to outside males I usually get one breeding for my money, so my timing has to be pretty exact and it usually has been.

Some of my girls never flag for a male, but when bred according to the right progesterone numbers I get puppies.

I have also done MANY breeding's, both natural and AI's for other people and every male and bitch is different in their reactions to one an other.

I love new Technology and thinks it's great what can now be done with dogs.

Lou Ann

 

[Pipelineozzy]

Most of the time I'm not using my own males...but they are a GREAT source of information And virtually always in agreement with cornification. What I do wonder about though...is if our ability to orchestrate reproduction in purebreds to this degree will eventually mean that they will lose "natural" repro abilities... Will the difficult to breed animals produce animals that are also difficult to breed, or is this an individualized trait? Anybody have experience with the daughters of bitches that were difficult to get bred? Have they been "normal"?

 

[Pipelineozzy]

And another question...are the dogs that have the abnormal cycles in mixed dog households, where there are both sexes? Does the presence of males have any affect on their cycling? I haven't been without at least one male dog around here in 22 years...so I'm very curious if their presence has an influence on the females cycling.

 

[Sun Valley]

Will the difficult to breed animals produce animals that are also difficult to breed, or is this an individualized trait? Anybody have experience with the daughters of bitches that were difficult to get bred? Have they been "normal"?

Cindy,

The bitch's I've had that short cycled that I was able to get bred didn't produce it the daughters I've kept, but I would imagine unless your keeping all of the females in a litter you wouldn't really know? Any thoughts about males coming from bitches with repro problems?

One thing I have never done or used was prostaglandins on any of my girls that had Pyo. I've always had them spayed. Even a Ch. bitch.

I can't answer your last post because I don't have males here, but that is an interesting thought.

Lou Ann

 

[brookside]

I have a studly chinese crested who tell me when things happen, unfortunately, he thinks they are happening all the time! Poor Polly gets him on her neck about every night. I don't worryabout him and them as they do get separated when things start getting wicked (around '5' on the progesterone tests).
LouAnn, I spoke with my repro vet and I'm going to do vaccines, a complete blood work up including the three thyroids. They both due to come into season in January so this would be a good time, according to her to have this done.