Sam won't return toy...

[mrsnamsherf]

I love taking my Sam swimming...he doesn't swim for swimming's sake, but he likes retrieving in the water. Only he doesn't actually return the toy. It's so frustrating to coax and plead or try to snag him when he goes by. :banghead:
He will only return the item some of the time (except for the first few retrieves), and the rest he has to be cajoled. He won't even come to me...just stands about five feet or so away "showing off" the toy. FWIW, this is a dog that comes 95% of the time or more in other situations...just not if a toy is involved. He does not guard the toy, or get upset if I try to take it...he is just trying to get me to chase him...it is very much a trophy. I only let him have it when we are actually working, or if I give it to him to carry-at home it is put away. If I do a bunch of short, quick retrieves, his return rate is much better. I do use variable rewards-treats for some returns, but not all, but it seems the toy is the highest prize...and I have good treats, too. If I try to approach and take the toy, he often runs away...he will stop if I say "Stop", but, even so, this behavior is far from the ideal return to hand...

I have been working on this with him for a whole year, and we are not much improved from where we started...I am kind of at a loss what to do next. Any suggestions?

Thank you,
Marie

 

[mrsnamsherf]

Oh, just figured out this is in wrong thread...:shuffle:

Also forgot to mention...I don't think this is a drive issue...he loves working, and rarely wants to quit before I do. Usually if I try to give him a rest by taking away the toy and encouraging him to play with other dogs, he tags around after me until I throw it again. Only once or twice has he ever refused a retrieve, and then I just took him out and made him get it.

Marie

 

[Bojie]

The only advice I can offer, is to use special treats reserved for water training only. Train (on land) the commands take it, hold it, and give and when he gives, give him the treat immediately. He'll learn quickly that giving you what he's retrieved earns high praise and irresistible treats. I always keep some meatball in my mouth so that as I take it from him with one hand, the other hand has the treat and it's an immediate reward as soon as I take the bumper from his mouth. I do this every time he returns to shore and finishes a command. I'm sure others will have other suggestions but this is what's worked best for us. Good luck!

 

[Ivoryudx]

Try putting him on a long line so you can pull him in, and praise/reward him when you get him to you. If he drops the toy, thats okay for a while, as that part will come later as he learns that he must return to you. This is part of 'come' and you should also work 'come' without any retrieve to reinforce the command.

 

[mrsnamsherf]

Thank you both for the good advice! I'll let you know how it goes.

Marie

 

[Thule's Mom]

The only advice I can offer, is to use special treats reserved for water training only. Train (on land) the commands take it, hold it, and give and when he gives, give him the treat immediately. He'll learn quickly that giving you what he's retrieved earns high praise and irresistible treats. I always keep some meatball in my mouth so that as I take it from him with one hand, the other hand has the treat and it's an immediate reward as soon as I take the bumper from his mouth. I do this every time he returns to shore and finishes a command. I'm sure others will have other suggestions but this is what's worked best for us. Good luck!

Thule does NOT retreive.... only sticks in the water and then she's not about to give them up to ME.... I will definitely try the treat trick... if the water EVER thaws out!!

 

[Bojie]

Thule does NOT retreive.... only sticks in the water and then she's not about to give them up to ME.... I will definitely try the treat trick... if the water EVER thaws out!!

You can practice on land at first. Stuff the bumper with treats and as soon as she brings it back give her the treats. It could draw her interest in the article she's retrieving. Just a few tips I've been given along the way. Also throw the article she's retrieving really close to her in the water at first, until she gets the idea of picking it up. You can throw it horizontally to shore at first.

 

[sarnewfie]

For landwork? You could try this. Have a long string on the bumper and pull it so he has to chase it (prey drive) Maybe he will take it that way? And bring it to you. Just a thought. Sometimes in SAR we did things like that but with different materials to get them "pumped up" so to speak.

 

[mrsnamsherf]

A slight update...

Am proofing the come...it's really pretty good, but have my doubts about being able to call him away from a person or dog once he is sniffing them. So I am going to begin throwing in some bigger distractions. He is very bonded to me, however, and watches to see where I am going to be all the time...if I tried to leave the waterfront, he would run after me, bumper or no bumper. Once he thought he was being clever by refusing to come out of the water, so I ran off and hid behind a bench. Did that ever get a reaction-he came quickly out after me, looking for me.

I am trying to figure out what treats will be most motivating...may just use cut-up cooked meat.

I tried putting him on a long line...percentage of retrieves went up-he's not dumb... he knew I had him!, but he tries to swing around me when he
comes in to shore. He ALWAYS comes to shore with the toy, but if he can go around me he will. I have found that if I back away holding the line, he will come more straight to me. Is this because he is trying to get out of the water before coming to me? I stand right at the water's edge. Also, the line gets tangled, so when I am trying to guide him in, it is either wrapped around his legs or there is too much slack...:tongue: Should I back away to prevent slack or?

I am trying to make the return more appealing by letting him carry the toy when we are walking on leash. Every so often, I call him to me, take the toy, then treat and return the toy. Rinse, repeat.

He will reliably take the toy on the "Take it" command-either from my hand or on the ground. And when he takes it, I can back away from him, and he will follow me and bring me the toy. (SARnewfie, he would totally be the kind of dog to pursue if I pulled it on a string-when I wave my cat's feathers on a stick at him, he loves it!) He does drop it before handing it off sometimes, but I can often get him to take it again...the hold part he does not get yet...but I think I can clicker train that ok.

Again, thank you all so much for your help...Sam and I are working hard.

Marie

 

[mrsnamsherf]

A further update:

I've really been working the "give the toy" back part of the retrieve. I give him the toy, and then back away (or walk away), then call him to me, take the toy and stuff treats in his mouth...I try to have them ready. I have practiced this a number of times this past week, along with the aforementioned things.

Guess what? Today at the dog park, he was AWESOME. :groovy: So much more responsive and aware of me overall than he has been lately. And when we practiced-some off-leash land retrieves-he brought me almost every single retrieve. With no stalling, going around me, or even stopping. On some retrieves, he actually RAN back to me. He even put the toy in my hand on most of them. I could not believe it. And the dog park was busy, too. We are getting there!

Marie