One Step Forward, Two Steps Back

[mmbrod02]

Scarlett has been in obedience school since she was 12 weeks old with a few small breaks in between sessions. She did wonderfully for basic puppy school and did alright in the intermediate class. Her teacher wanted to pass her on to advanced but I insisted she needed more time in intermediate. Anyways she learned all the basic commands and does very well with the basics, but she has developed a new habit over the past week in addition to completely ignoring some skills she has mastered. She has stopped lunging at dogs when we see them out for a walk, but now she randomly plops herself down wherever she feels like it in the middle of a walk. I have tried to be really upbeat and encourage her to start walking again by saying, "Let's go!" I have tried luring her with treats and chicken does not even work. I have tried using a strict voice and telling her to get up. Nothing works and I look crazy standing in front of random strangers homes for anywhere from 5 mins to 1.5 hours! She is heavy to lift and rolls onto her back and paws at me if I try to pick her up. I have asked her trainer and he said to try treats or a pinch/choke collar. The treats obviously do not work and while I know many people use pinch/choke collars with success I will not use them.
She has also started ignoring me with basic commands like coming when called and she used to do this wonderfully.
I practice all her commands regularly throughout the day and I think she is young to be in her teenage rebellious phase so I am not sure what to do. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated!

 

[OodlesOfNoodles]

You said in another post that she's around 7 months, right? That was about the exact time Finn started to pretend he knew no commands either, even though, like Scarlett, he's been in training since around 12 weeks and has done very well. We just kept at it with him and didn't let him get away with it. If he didn't 'sit' when told, we walked away to give him a time out if in the house for a minute or so before coming back and starting again (rinse and repeat if he was being really stubborn), or if outside, didn't let him do what he wanted to do in lieu of the sit (i.e. go play with another dog). We had to walk away from playing with many a dog when he stopped listening to commands, but we were both consistent with it and he started to learn that fun time ends when he acts like a jerk and that we're more stubborn than him. Almost a month later now and he's starting to turn the corner, so I'd guess it's just a phase for Scarlett as well.

Assuming there's no medical reason for her lying down (which you could always get checked if you're concerned there is), you could try walking away so she wants to chase after you to be with you (if in a safe enough area to do so), or try some better/stinkier treats. Finn hates to be away from us so would most likely dash after us if we left him and hadn't given him the stay command. Our neighbour's Bernese also lies down randomly and I know they have to use either hot dogs or cheese nips to get her going again. That or if she sees another dog, she gets right up to play (we've had Finn be gallant and 'walk her to her door' a few times after a play session haha). She also has a habit of lying down when they get really close to home, so I've seen them jogging with her the last block towards home to keep her engaged.

Also, is she more toy motivated rather than food? Maybe a good squeaky toy could get her interested and up and moving so the walk could continue? I'd guess that she's viewing it as a game when you try and touch her to get her to stand up (hence the rolling around and pawing), so I'd hazard a guess that if you're not physically strong enough to lift her when she does that, that it may not help too much as she thinks it's fun and is therefore more likely to keep doing it.

 

[ElvisTheNewf]

I was against the prong collar too, but that's because I just assumed it was painful. Elvis did the same thing - just flop down and refuse to move. He was almost 100 pounds at 7-8 months old and he'd kick and bite if we tried to move him. His trainer kept mentioning the prong and finally just asked me why I thought it was so bad. He had me try it on my leg and you know what? It's not bad. Not bad at all! I was shocked and frankly, kind of embarrassed I fought it for so long. Anyway, once we put it on Elvis, it was like night and day. He never flopped down at all, but we rarely, rarely, ever had to tighten it on him. He now knows that the prong means business and usually that he's going somewhere.

I'm not trying to convince you to try it, but if you've never seen or felt one for yourself, you may be surprised. If you decide to try, have your trainer show you. There is a certain way to use it! If nothing else, the prong reminds Elvis that WE are in charge around here.


Oh, and I learned a long time ago that if most people on here recommend the same thing, it's for a very good reason! I didn't believe in the mars or dryer either and was really wrong about those too!!

 

[mmbrod02]

Yes, Scarlett is 7 months now and she now acts like she has been taught nothing! I did bring out hot dog slices today and managed to get her to come along by using those but that does not always work. I also tried walking away in hopes she would follow but she just lays there wagging her tail.
I have to admit I have not used a prong collar ever before so it may be worth researching a little more. I just really would rather resort to other ways to train my dog as I would like to eventually have her trained as a therapy dog and those types of collars are not supported for use in those settings and although I know they are not cruel if used properly, they still make me nervous.

 

[Bison]

Ahhh, the teenage years!

I second the prong collar! Just don't get one of those ones with the "fastener" attachments--get the one that you have to actually clip the links together to attach. I learned the hard way (with a previous dog) that the fastener type can come undone fairly easily, and at the most inopportune times, which can be dangerous if your pup wants to take off suddenly after something.

As for being cruel, or hurting your dog, if you learn how to use the prong properly, it is NOT cruel, and does not cause pain.
Newfs have very thick coats, and the prong collar is less likely to hurt them (even when used incorrectly) than other breeds.

I'm a newbie here (although not new to giant breeds), and just got my newf (a little over a yr old) approx 3 weeks ago. The previous owners had had him on a plain choke collar, and he had NO leash manners! Two walks with the prong (My Saint's prong), and like ETN said, it was night and day. After about 3 corrections (with a command, I use "EP!") he was heeling nicely. Then when I saw he was about to pull or flop, a simple "EP!" did the job (no correction required!)

Mind you, the prong should be used just as a training aid--a means to an end, if you will. After a bit more training, I hope to get my boy walking nicely (and behaving!) on a flat collar.

Also, have you tried "throwing a mini party" when she does get up and follow you? HUGE praise, dance around, treats, etc?
You may feel silly doing it, but it's worked for me with my Saint!

.

 

[ElvisTheNewf]

Just a reminder - you ALWAYS use the prong WITH a back-up collar, never by itself. Even the strongest ones can still come undone and it's never worth the risk. We use Elvis' prong with a simple chain collar. You just never know.

 

[new_2_newf]

teenage years, you are in them. and will be for another year or so.

If you don't want to employ a choke or prong (I'd advocate prong over choke myself), you could attempt the equivalent manually. I warn you though, it isn't pretty. Or easy. You can physically grab them, if she is smallish by the scruff, if she is larger or the scruff isn't right, you can grab her right by the face, get a good solid grip on her lips and pull her up. It isn't pleasant and she will not like it (I think if it like someone hauling me around by the ear), but is is important that you insist she follow through with what you are asking, be it walking, grooming, etc regardless of the method you use to help you. It's not fun to haul a 100 ish dog up by the face, I'd much rather use a tool like a prong for a little bit and then transition back to a flat once her brain was back, but I have hauled one very bad baby Sulley up by the face when he growled at his mama. It was only ever required once, and it never happened again.

In other aspects of her life, go right back to basics in her training. Right. Back. To. The. Start. Go back to day one of your first class and start over. Have her have the same restrictions she had when she was young (no off leash, etc). And work, work, work. It will pass and she'll find her brain again, and until then got right back to basics with training, lower your expectations a bit, and be very resolute in your requests...don't ask for something currently out of her skill set, even if she used to do it, but when you do ask for something, you must make sure it happens. if that means keeping her on a long lead and reeling her on to practice recall, make it happen.

 

[mmbrod02]

Thanks for all your help. I am realizing that the prong collar is probably necessary for right now after spending 1.5 hours trying to bribe and coax her to get up and walk in the hot humidity today. I put her harness on which usually helps and I could not get her to budge with that, by offering chicken, or even calling for a neighbor to come and say hello to her which usually makes her get moving. I ended up missing an appointment and actually having to tell the person I was supposed to meet that I could not get my dog to move. To top it off she finally got up and peed in the living room- she has not peed inside in months. I am realizing that my plans of how I would train her and where I thought she would be at this point are not realistic.

 

[new_2_newf]

don't despair, we have ALL been there. Really, we have. Newfs go through a horrendous teenage rebellion thing, and it's a major pain in the rear to have a 100 lb dog decide to not listen to a word you say. It's very upsetting after the amount of you have put int up to this point, but I promise it's all normal. Very normal. Try to go right back to basics with your training...hopefully after a short burst of that, she'll stop the laying down silliness. Another option you could try is putting on the prong, and only leashing to the flat. Then, if you need to, you can hook up to the prong and move her. Otherwise, she really won't be any the wiser and it won't hurt her any. Once she's through this, you can transition back to a flat the same way...put on the prong, but hook up to the flat. after that works for a bit, start randomly doing short walks without the prong on and increase the length of walk and frequency of the prong-less times. Eventually, you won't need it.

 

[R Taft]

LOL...Katy was a little Later....She was perfect puppy, did everything, never chewed. Did her first title at 6 months...LOL At 9 months i thought I had brought home the wrong dog after a Class . We just kept on going, made it more fun, added more swimming to make her happy and just kept training.......She came back at about 12 months........
I have never used a prong as they are illegal in Australia anyway.i just made myself more interesting, with better treats, tuggy and squeaky toys

 

[ElvisTheNewf]

Hmmmm what time are you walking? She may be getting too hot if you'd been out for awhile and just needs a break - but 1.5 hours is a long time and I'm sure the pavement isn't much cooler for her.

Don't get too frustrated with the training. I know, way easier said than done, but we've ALL been there. Newfs are very sly - you meet them and they're so sweet and mellow and you think they just come like that. It does take a lot of work. Elvis had been back to training about 5-6 times before he turned 3 years old. He's always been lazy but that dog is about as stubborn as they come.

She'll get there. She will. I can't tell you when, but eventually, she will.

 

[OodlesOfNoodles]

Almost a month later now and he's starting to turn the corner...

By the way, turns out I was wrong about this - his brain has been misplaced again. The result is me with 2 arms full of bruises and lumps from him jumping up and using me as a human chew toy, and me having to effectively sit on him in the middle of a VERY busy city street to get him to snap out of it. So...things may improve and then take a turn for the worse, something to keep in mind :ah:

 

[Natasha]

Raleigh is going through this now too at 9 months! Don't have the stubbornness with walks but we still face the issue of overexcitement with dogs/people :s We are working on desensitising him.

I'm not sure if it's a cultural thing but at least in the UK, I know people struggle to put a positive spin on prong collars. A shop was recently found to have been selling prong collars at Crufts (big UK dog show) and people were getting really riled up online. A lot of people here tend to use head collars (not muzzles). We use one with Raleigh sometimes and we have been super impressed with it so that could be another option for you We bought ours from Dogmatic and the fit is super, doesn't rub/irritate the skin either.

 

[mmbrod02]

Thanks again for all your suggestions and reassurances that this is normal behavior. As for the cause of Scarlett lying down possibly because of the heat, I do not think so because she does it now when it is cool too (today in the 50's). I like the idea of trying a head harness and have ordered the gentle leader. I also like the idea of using the prong as just a back-up and keeping her regular collar attached to the leash. It seems like a great idea to have the option to easily switch the leash to the prong if she plonks down and refuses to walk.
I hope my sweet Scarlett comes back to me soon though!

 

[mmbrod02]

It seems that we have had a break through! I am keeping my fingers crossed that she will continue doing so well, but she has been walking on the leash nicely, started listening to basic commands again, no lunging/biting lately. I am one happy puppy owner! My sweet girl is back

 

[padkins]

The teenage years can be very trying. You have to constantly train and remind them that you are in control and that they are to follow your commands. You have gotten a lot of good advice here, and just remember, you are not alone and it will not last forever.

 

[Aika]

Thanks for all your help. I am realizing that the prong collar is probably necessary for right now after spending 1.5 hours trying to bribe and coax her to get up and walk in the hot humidity today. I put her harness on which usually helps and I could not get her to budge with that, by offering chicken, or even calling for a neighbor to come and say hello to her which usually makes her get moving. I ended up missing an appointment and actually having to tell the person I was supposed to meet that I could not get my dog to move. To top it off she finally got up and peed in the living room- she has not peed inside in months. I am realizing that my plans of how I would train her and where I thought she would be at this point are not realistic.

I read this entire thread, very interesting and encouraging stuff. I'm glad to know there is a light at the end of the tunnel. How's your Newfie doing now? Are you using the prong collar?
I got a prong collar for my 9 month old and I'm training 15 minutes a day (sometimes twice a day) to get her use to it. She is a strong willed, dominant dog and wants to be the one in control. She rebels against correction (has done it since she was just a baby) but on the other hand once I win the battle of the wills and she relents of being obeying she is the sweetest, smartest dog I've ever seen.