Obedience training and desensitizing at once..

abrodhagen

New member
I have the challenge of obedience training Toby as well as desensitizing him with my daughter.....
The behaviorist determined that he is a fear biter without bite inhibition......Wow, this is difficult.....
This could be the result of coming from a breeder who sent him out too young....but this I cannot change. It's scary to know this but I am willing to work with it.....Problem is Toby still has issues with my daughter and it's so much management.....I have to be aware of where they both are at all times....
I was told to reward him in her presence at all times , but at the same time I'm trying to reward him for good behavior as well.....it seems to clash sometimes....
So afraid of set backs.....
The support on this forum has been so encouraging . Does anyone have a Newf that has bitten and worked through it?
I'm curious to know if this will be resolved....I know it takes a lot of time and patience, but I do have my moments where I feel discouraged.....
I have grown to love this dog so much.....he is great with everyone with the exception of my daughter.....

Any suggestions, or guidance would be appreciated......

Thanks Gang....

Angela
 

victoria1140

Active member
I havent had a newf that bit but we had a labrador cross that did. It was hard work at first as his trust levels were so poor and if he was cornered, went to the toilet outside or even had to go through a doorway he went through such a panic state that he lashed out. Sorry for it afterwards but no good for most people .I have no idea what the hell his previous owners did to him but it obviously wasn't nice.

It took time to gain his trust and we had to learn to read his body language fast but over time and careful working with his confidence and through desensitising him he became a wonderful dog . He wasn't fond of strangers until he got to know them but he was great and lived a very happy 12 years with us .

The main thing is trying to stay consistent with his training and issues with your daughter and you will see improvement gradually. It's not always a quick fix but oh so worth it in the end

We used to read to Spider as this got him used to us and through treats , sitting down with him at his level when he got scared , and body massage so he got used to touch.
We also introduced him to Maddy JRT who we got a year later and she was so feisty that she became the leader and he followed her everywhere . They were an inseperable partnership until he passed away.
 
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wrknnwf

Active member
Questions...

  1. How old is your daughter?
  2. When does he typically bite? Where (location)? Give a typical scenario.
  3. Is anyone else present when he bites?
  4. Are there warning signs (growls, stares, head lowering, stiff body posture, etc.)?
  5. What obedience commands does Toby do well (at least 80% of the time)?
  6. How are you rewarding him (treats, praise, etc.)?
 

abrodhagen

New member
My daughter is 28 years old....he bit her when she was face to face with him rubbing him around the ears.....he did growl but I wasn't there at the time to caution her and she didn't know the signs....obedience is great when he's not stressed, he sits, will stay, lay down, give paws and come to me.....but when he's stressed, NONE OF THE ABOVE !!!!
I am rewarding him with treats and praise. He doesn't even hear me once he's in a situation that stresses him out, like the obedience class, with other dogs present....or when my daughter walks in a room ....I can see him looking at her with a side glance.....good news is he doesn't bark and growl as much at her as he use to but we are a long way from them being BFF's LOL

Angela
 

victoria1140

Active member
face to face may mean he takes it as a confrontational signal as dogs go face to face before a fight, was her head near the underneath of his neck as a danger spot for dog fights, notice its where most dogs try to go to subdue or attack an opponent first.

It may be difficult for your daughter but could she perhaps take over the feeding and he will be tense when she is around as she is obviously nervous of him and this will unsettle him.

try a squeaky toy or a rattle tin to distrat him when he tenses as it may help snap him out of it though ask your trainer first.

keep on with the socialisation as it sounds like he is going to need tons of this so he can learn to cope
 

wrknnwf

Active member
Thoughts and suggestions...

It could be that someone tried to discipline him by taking him by the collar or cheeks and staring him down or shaking him. Always a very bad idea, because it frequently evokes this kind of behavior later down the road with other people in less challenging enviroments.

Or it could be that his ears or some part of his face hurts. Many dogs do not like their ears rubbed, especially if they had previous or recurring infections. A bad tooth or prior neck injury could do the same. Did the vet check his ears, neck, teeth and general head area for sensitive spots? Did Toby seem to mind the vet's attention to those areas?

You mentioned that you had to be aware of where each of them is at all times. (I am assuming she lives in your home) Does he make unprovoked attacks on your daughter or change his posture when she's present (other than what you already mentioned)? Or are you just concerned that he might?

Your consternation may be adding to the problem. He may feel your worry and be constantly tense himself, especially if you ramp it up when your daughter comes in the room or is near. It would be very normal for you to become alarmed if she or he appears in the same room together, but you MUST control you're own emotions or you will not be able to help either of them. He may associate her presence with your worry and assume she is the cause, putting him on alert to some imagined threat. Has he ever growled or threatened her when you and she embrace, or are in very close proximity to one another? Does he ever try to get in between the two of you?

Your relationship with your daughter should always appear to be happy and relaxed when he is present. If you need to have an argumentative or serious mother/daughter talk with her, go in the bedroom and shut the door, or casually turn him outside.

I would have your daughter hand feed him every bit of his meal. She should do this in a non-confrontational way. Standing and not looking directly in his eyes, but just to the side of his face. He should remain in her peripheral vision at all times without furtive sideways glances on her part. If he's the nippy, grabby type, she should keep the food (treats, etc.) in a closed fist and only open it if he licks her hand. She can put a word with this action, such as "nice" or "gently" and not use the word "no" if he makes a simple mistake. Do not hold treats out by the tips of the fingers and allow him to snatch them away. He must be gentle at all times. She should praise everytime he does it right.

She should be the one rewarding him, not you. This will prevent you from rewarding tense, ambivalent behavior that you might not notice. Will he do simple commands for her? I would have her take over the obedience training with him (including some heel work, fronts and finishes) at home where he's more likely to pay attention. It should be upbeat and almost playful, not authoritarian. Her voice should be lilting, but not pleading with lots and lots of praise. She should understand and ALWAYS use a release word or gesture AFTER she praises him. It might be prudent to have a positive reinforcement trainer or someone else come to your house to give her some instruction. If you or anyone gives her instruction, please do so in a manner where you're offering suggestions ("try it this way") as opposed to "no, you're doing it all wrong". You're approach to both of them should be positive and encouraging, not critical. Keep the training sessions short and successful, ending on a good note. Don't push either of them past the point where they tire or become frustrated.

She should never, ever attempt to discipline him. If the behaviorist says he's a fear biter, then something she does is evoking that emotion in him. Is she afraid of him? Pop and jerk training is definitely not appropriate here. If he makes a mistake, simply start over or go back a step or two where he can be successful. Use what skills he has mastered as your starting point, but don't hesitate to go back to the very basics in order for him to earn a reward. This is all about building an amiable relationship, rather than teaching a dog how to do an exercise.

She could be playing fetch or hide and seek with him. If you're presence is a distraction (or evokes a protective response) and you feel she is safe alone with him, let them have some fun time together (you can watch from a distance or through the window). She should stay off the ground and remain standing, but her posture should not be tense. She should remember to praise him happily (Good boy, brilliant!), but refrain from becoming overly animated. She should not run, so as not to turn on his prey drive, but she could be somewhat bouncy in her praise and release him by lifting her arms, palms upward and saying "all done!".

Lack of bite inhibition is a separate issue. How old is Toby? Does he have any doggie playmates? Usually, dogs are better than humans at teaching bite inhibition, but if he doesn't get along with other dogs, then you will have to work on feeding him everything by hand and work on "take", "hold" and "give" for a time .

Having said all of this, your daughter must be a willing participant. If she doesn't have the time or isn't enthused, you may have to resort to life long management of the issues, instead. But if you are both committed to solving these problems, I think it is do-able with a lot of patience.
 
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