Newf Standards?

[Chad]

How many people think the newf standards are to vague? I mean everything from the shape of the heads
to weight and height. Aren't newfs supposed to be big powerful dogs capable of water rescues and pulling in fishing nets and hauling loads in pull carts. It seems that our dogs are being down sized or poodlized! LOL just a thought, but in this case isn't bigger really better and a more true representation of the breed?

 

[sarnewfie]

The true representative is the dog in the painting sir edwin landseer did.
not just landseer, but all colors.
that to me is it, i hate seeing the new fangled vogue our breed goes thru.
and no
bigger is not better, look at the type italy uses jumping out of helicopters and off speeding boats.
http://www.pugnewfs.dircon.co.uk/Page2.htm
go to page one you will see tonns of photos.
they are not oversized or huge.
they are average sized and normal bone.
not overdone in coat, head or bone

[ 11-23-2004, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: sarnewfie ]

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

No, bigger is not better. Some will over feed in hopes of getting the biggest newf and brag about their 200 lb newf. The larger overfed newfs generally end up with orthopedic problems from too rapid growth and excess weight on the joints.

 

[Elizabeth]

One of my favorite books that disect the standard is The Newfoundland, by Emmy Bruno.
It goes into great detail.

E

 

[N2N Mags Dad]

Same here.

That book helps.

Has comparative descriptions.

Also uses some simple geometry/symetry descriptions to help characterize shapes of head, proportions of body to body parts.

Seems like its the background that should be printed with the standards so the standards have more meaning.

 

[Chad]

First off my newf doesn't have to be two hundred pounds for me to brag about him! LOL I happen to like the larger newfs with the massive heads and big powerful chests with the sweet brown eyes. Secondly if you give your puppy a controlled growth high quality dog food and obey all the rules on joint impact for the joints in the first year, your Newf shouldnt suffer from problems providing his parents have good or excellent hips and joints, elbows. (heck even fair hips)Thirdly I didn't say fat Newfs, I said large Newfs. LOL However everybody
has there own version of what they like about the breed and that is my point .... The breeders don't seem to be all on the same page on what the standard should be! Fourthly if you want a larger Newf as a standard without defects thats why breeders have a certain agenda or breeding program. I am not saying we need to breed for two hundred pound Newfs, I am saying in my opinion I like bigger heads and chest and there are a lot of Newfs that look drastically different in size and shape because the standards are so vague. P.S And just because you see a CH in front of a name doesnt mean squat sometimes! LOL

 

[sarnewfie]

your Newf shouldnt suffer from problems providing his parents have good or excellent hips and joints, elbows. (heck even fair hips)
##################
Wrong
even with cleared generations you still can get a pup or two with problems!!!!
even dogs that dont pass ofa can throw Cleared pups and on down with the same odds as above, it happens and no use denying it.
next, the dogs in the site i posted a link to are TRUE working dogs, and dont need their chest or head messed with anymore
the heads today are that of st bernards and very unapealing to me with the saggy eyes.
sorry if i offend but no i dont agree with some of what the bruno book states, i have hashed this over with some other old timer breeders.
As an aside a lady who has been in the breed a very long time, and i, had discussed the loss of backskull that we are seeing.
when that is lost, than the head is out of proportion.
some books do studies, but how political is that study and how much it leans to one persons interpretation.
the cat foot is also being lost, weak feet abound and it is hidden with clever grooming tricks.

[ 11-25-2004, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: sarnewfie ]

 

[N2N Mags Dad]

Had run across the Bruno book, it seemed a pretty good starting point, at least in how shapes and proportions are compared.

So I guess you are saying that certain of the evaluations it makes might be skewed in emphasis, maybe in a slightly wrong direction from what you are experiencing.

Thanks SAR.

And Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[Chad]

hip and joint problems are part of genetics sarnewfie with good breeding programs recessive bad genetics can be filtered out but how many breeders do a pennhip or OFA test on there dogs before two years of age and more importantly did they breed there dog before they new how good or bad there hips were? (pennhip testing) I feel that test for
the hips is another good alternative to the OFA as it can be done as early as 4 months
old where OFA requires your dog to be at least 2 years or older. Pennhip is a 3 posistion x-ray evaluation, what more thorough way could you go?? OFA is only a 1 position x-ray evaluation. Also sarnewfie notice how breeders give a one year warranty on there dogs but OFA tests can't be done until the dog is two years old? ( I wonder why)

Once again in my opinion I like the larger newfs and what I would like is to get feed back on why the standards are so vague and find out everybodys opinion on what there version of what the standards for the newfs should be and what they like about the physical characteristics of the breed and I am not talking about qouting the AKC breed standard version. There is no wrong answer, and in conclusion if you look on this website you will see a wide verity of shapes and sizes of the newfoundland so obviously everyones views are drastically different. LOL

 

[BluwaterNewfs]

Re:The one year guarantee on hips.

If you read the contracts, in most it talks about 'crippling hip dysplasia' Which means teh dog can't do anything, not even a pet. That type of problem usually shows up prior to a year.

 

[Chad]

Geesh JTNewf you make it sound like the contract is there to protect the breeder and not the breed!

 

[sarnewfie]

to what point is it genetic, i use both penn hip and ofa, no longer feel the need to penn hip.
there is a whole thread on this discussion actually many threads you can look up information on thoughts many have contributed to this very subject!
i base my decisions on the working ability rather than the standing in the ring and looking purdy ability.
i want to see a true powerful working dog that has endurance intelligence and the correct amount of coat, nothing over done, no need for it and it is a waste to that individual dog.
you have that without mass, to much mass is a waste to a body.
and a hindrance

[ 11-25-2004, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: sarnewfie ]

 

[Chad]

So sarnewfie Pick a weight, Height and size and that is your opinion on what the standard should be! The breeders dictate what the correct form and movements of the breed is going to be and if you think that a smaller dog can do all of those things but a larger newf would be hindered (rolling eyes) OK. Now how about some specifics weight, height, and size sarnewfie? I am sure there are plenty of large newfs that can best your newfs in the agility class or are your dogs ultimately superior the quintessential of the breed? You asked to what point does genetics have to do with hips? A great deal sarnewfie there is a great many books on the subject, in addition so does the type of nutrition your dog gets as well as the first year of joint impact rule of thumb.

 

[sarnewfie]

Darkwing, as breeders who experience hip problems it is not always purly genetic in some experience, others go by written book
experience talks more.
males that are 130-150 pds
females 100-120
roll your eyes all ya want, i worked newfs in SAR and in the field the clumsy oversized one did not do half as good as emmett who was in the average size and weight catagory.
the newfs on the webpage are normal size and very very agile and able to do all work they were intended for.
the link i posted above.
now it is turkey day and i am not gonna get in a huge debate about this yet again there are many threads on this already.
P<S<
i take offense to this :::
am sure there are plenty of large newfs that can best your newfs in the agility class or are your dogs ultimately superior the quintessential of the breed?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$
never ever did i insinuate mine are perfect; and agility is for them to gain confidance; not for performance or competition
take what you want from that,.

[ 11-25-2004, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: sarnewfie ]

 

[Chad]

Sarnewfie you make referrence to unappealing heads because they look like St Bernards, are you aware of the fact that the St Bernard population was almost wiped out from distemper in the 1860 and they brought Newfoundlands into cross breed so they could replenish the stock. The reason they did this is because they look so similiar to one another.

Hince body, shape, head, etc etc. The only problem was Newfs have long hair and St Bernards have short hair
resulting in the long hair St Bernard we often see today. I apologize if I have offended you but you make general across the board statements! My Original topic is that the breed standards are to vague and if everyone would post what they think maybe one voice can make a difference! LOL

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

How specific do you want the breed standard to be, Darkwing? The standard has to be in general terms. If you show your newf, you would know that each kennel has their own "look" and after a while one can look at an entry in the ring and recognize the kennel or line it is from. Getting too specific would be catering to certain kennels and eliminating others. What would be the point of narrowing the criteria for the standard anyway?

 

[Chad]

Just curious but why does everyone so far seem to ask questions rather than answer the question! NewfYork so a sharpei shouldn't look like a sharpei. These kennels looks are pretty widely seperated in the shape and size of newfoundlands and are on the border of loosing the essence of the dog.
How about major faults like lack of size, weak bone, incorrect open coats, lack of overall balance and poor movement. Lets not forget that the massive size, huge bone, heavy double coat and strength were essential to withstand the extreme climate of Newfoundland and to survive the privations these ill cared for dogs endured during their hard working lives , pulling heavy loads on land and swimming in stormy icy seas. That is the essence of the breed. How about looking for well balanced males with massive bone, large size and substance which looked like they could work effectively as draught dogs .A Newfoundland should not be a light weight or pretty poodle .This is a giant working breed . Size and strength are absolutely vital, dignified, noble and powerful, this breed has suffered in recent years from overuse of undersized dogs for breeding. Kennels going in there own direction is a good way
for breed seperation. Heck we already have labradoodles why not newfadoodles? LOL The standards are vague in my opinion and also aren't breeders supposed to be breeding to better improve the breed, not to have all of these drastically different kennel lines?

 

[sarnewfie]

these are from the link above in case you could not view, not oversized not loaded with coat.
http://www.harborwindsnewfoundlands.homestead.com/emmettboat.html
here is emmett pulling the boat.
also i am sure others will post photos of theirs pulling boats etc....

[ 11-25-2004, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: sarnewfie ]

 

[Codes]

Here is my working dog

 

[Chad]

sarnewfie you can't see a drastically different appearance from the pictures you just posted and oh lets say NewfYorks dog? Oh by the way NewfYork your dog has a very nice head! this is a perfect example of how much of a difference there is in the breed by comparing these dogs