Landseer genetic question

[janices]

There is a separate genetic component to IS from Landseer. It is recessive, so both parents have to have it. Also, just white on the toes is not IS. I has to cover the whole foot.

White shrinks as get older. You can start out foot which turns into toes as get older.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

Yes Janice...that's correct. And most of the time the white flashes on feet that Landseer recessive black pups will have DOES shrink as they get older...sometimes it completely disappears, depending how much they have.
To my knowledge, there is no "set pattern" on irish. MOST of the time it will be all four feet, tail tip and chest, but I have had one that was Irish that had one black foot and the rest white, and I've also had one that had completely white front legs lol. (That was awful cute.) What they did all have in common tho was the tail tip!! And not just a few hairs...they all have a flag on the end of the tail to some extent.

 

[janices]

Actually Lynn, Marg and I submitted DNA from two litters that had Irish spotted pups in it to try to identify the "irish". They came back with NOTHING. (We were hoping to find something so that you could coat color test for it like we do for Landseer, grey, brown etc.) The study was done by the same woman that identified the other colors, Sheila Schmutz at the University of Saskatchewan. The actual "irish spotted" genetics that exist in other breeds like the border collie etc. does not exist in our breed. There is no queston in my mind that it is separate and distinct, but at this point, she can't identify it and she believes it is most likely something on the black genetics that modifies pigment migration in the very early stages of development...which I suppose makes sense because she said pigment in early stages moves outwards to the extremities....and that's where the white shows up that separates them from just being an ordinary Landseer recessive dog...they ARE recessive Landseer also, but there is something modifying the black. According to her, their DNA at this point is just showing a black/landseer recessive dog. We had two litters and parents that we sent DNA for,both with one Landseer parent and one black carrying irish parent. After two months of waiting, we still don't know anymore than we did when we started lol. She did say if funding comes through eventually that allows she will take another look at it. So I guess technically, all we know at this point is that it's not "the" irish spotting gene that other breeds have, which is separate and distinct and identifiable.

OK, then testing looks like won't help me either.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

Nope, not at this time it won't. When I was in question what a black was carrying (irish or Landseer) I bred to a landseer. You get irish and blacks, but you KNOW that all of the pups are Landseer recessive, therefore if you select a black from that for future breeding, it cannot carry Irish. And there are always LOTS of good homes waiting for Irish puppies!

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

Actually Lynn, Marg and I submitted DNA from two litters that had Irish spotted pups in it to try to identify the "irish". They came back with NOTHING. (We were hoping to find something so that you could coat color test for it like we do for Landseer, grey, brown etc.) ..... The actual "irish spotted" genetics that exist in other breeds like the border collie etc. does not exist in our breed. There is no queston in my mind that it is separate and distinct,..... So I guess technically, all we know at this point is that it's not "the" irish spotting gene that other breeds have, which is separate and distinct and identifiable.

I don't doubt that it is not the same IS gene in other breeds, but there is something there. Just because it could not be identified, does not mean it does not exist. I spoke to a geneticist last year about this, and he said that IS and Landseer/piebald were two separate genes. He did also indicate that what the female had genetically was more important.

 

[NewfieMama]

I just want to say that this thread is

1- A welcome break from Zuzu's TPLO/LP surgery; and
2- SO much more interesting to me than eye color in fruit flies in terms of understanding how genetics works.

Rock on.

 

[YorkvilleNewfie]

and I've also had one that had completely white front legs lol. (That was awful cute.)

I want to see a pic of this one!

 

[Pipelineozzy]

I just posted him "elsewhere" Kristen - day before yesterday. He's grown up now and his name is Rebus...go take a look

Lynn - I have had the pattern where it came from the mother (my foundation bitch actually carried it) and in the last litter I had them in it came from the father. Mine have all been litters where there was a Landseer parent, so I knew what I was "getting into" with the markings and that I would get black and Irish, all carrying Landseer from the landseer parent. (I don't agree that the "mothers" genetics are more important when it comes to color, whichever parent gives the dominant color..that is what you will get - Landseer is recessive to both black and the mismark pattern.) I think that rather than a totally separate color gene, it will eventually be found to be something like the gray - which is a dilution factor that modifies the existing color genetics.

 

[janices]

i have had the pattern where it came from the mother (my foundation bitch actually carried it) and in the last litter I had them in it came from the father. Mine have all been litters where there was a Landseer parent, so I knew what I was "getting into" with the markings and that I would get black and Irish, all carrying Landseer from the landseer parent. (I don't agree that the "mothers" genetics are more important when it comes to color, whichever parent gives the dominant color..that is what you will get - Landseer is recessive to both black and the mismark pattern.) I think that rather than a totally separate color gene, it will eventually be found to be something like the gray - which is a dilution factor that modifies the existing color genetics.

I brought it in from sire. Knew he did have Irish. My black bitch was possible landseer recessive. Tend to agree may be modifier of white to certain locations. As long as not excessive showing does not pose much of problem. Yes, that's what we were discussing going back landseer to pull back landseer since my blacks more than likely have Irish.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

Yes, and by breeding TO a landseer, when you get a black pup, you KNOW that it does NOT carry Irish..it HAS to carry Landseer. So tho you get some Irish pups..you know what you have.

 

[Ohana Mom]

Interesting discussion. Our boy Iz - in the avitar, has white on all 4 feet, has white on his entire belly and had a white tail tip (but that is mostly gone now). He is not Landseer recessive.... His mother was similarly marked, as was his grandmother.... Of his 10 littermates - several of them had white and some were all black.
And regarding the earlier poster about showing - totally fine to show. Our boy is not only a CH but was a Top 20 Newf a few years ago The white was challenging at times - but we love his white!!!!

 

[Pipelineozzy]

Have you coat tested him? I'd LOVE to know what it comes back as. I would suspect that he has "two copies" of whatever genetics are producing the marking pattern if he isn't Landseer recessive. That was the kind of dog I would have LOVED to send to the researcher since he is clearly of a pattern that does not exist according to her lol. MOST of them are Landseer recessive...but they certainly CAN have the genetics from both sides, and be basically "pure" for that pattern.

 

[Prdmary]

I asked Healthgene how reliable the testing was....and their reply is that they have had "very, very, very few people come back and tell them it was incorrect"....Ha! So 3 "very's"........

 

[Pipelineozzy]

I asked Healthgene how reliable the testing was....and their reply is that they have had "very, very, very few people come back and tell them it was incorrect"....Ha! So 3 "very's"........

lol..that's encouraging!! Most of my stuff I KNOW what they carry, but I do have one male that was suspect for gray as well as landseer, so I tested him and he does indeed carry gray. (And proved this on a female that the owner said " couldn't" carry it...but apparently, she not only could, she did, and we got a gray landseer.