If I'll ever become a breeder...

[absolutely new]

I have an 8 m.o.Newfy male and 5 m.o.Newfy female, fine looking Newfies, they both are show prospects(they are from different kennels, both have nice pedigrees with Topmast and PC bloodlines) and I would like to show them or to have a handler to show them when I'll see that they are ready and mature enough...
Couple of questions to ask...would it be better to x-ray their hips and elbows preliminary or should I wait untill they'll be 24 months.
In case if anyone of them will be dysplastic, I don't think I should ever breed them.
At what age should I check their hearts(their breeders didn't check their hearts by cardiologist), what other tests (probably cystinaria, tryhoid, other hereditary diseases...)can I do at this age? My vet told me that it's too early.
In case if they both will have health clearances and we'll decide to breed them in couple of years, what tests should be done prior to breeding(female/male). If a female will get pregnant, again, what test should be done during her pregnancy.
Will appreciate any information.

 

[MGoBlue]

I'm not a breeder, and I can really only give you feedback on the hips. My breeder had me do OFA prelim at 4 months. Four months is good timing, as it's just before the really serious growth spurts start. Once they're in rapid growth mode, you can get looseness in the hips, giving false readings. (Five & 8 months might be late for getting accurate prelim checks...I don't know.) You can not certify them at such an early age, but you can get preliminary ratings from OFA, and this will at least give you an early idea about their genetics. From what I understand, if you find that the pup has displasia, it can be either unilateral (one hip only) or bilateral (both hips subluxed.) If it's bilateral, this may either be due to genetics or injury, and you might want to think twice about breeding that pup if it's genetic. If it's unilateral, this cannot be due to genetics - it's due to an injury, and breeding should be ok. Either way, it's a good measure of whether your current diet/supplement/exercise regimen is working. I've heard a LOT of people on this board vouch that they've been able to improve hips on puppies that were caught early using supplements so that the 24 month reading was a lot better than it would have been.
I hope that helps! Someone correct me if I'm misstating the facts... this is just the kind of stuff I've learned from discussions on NN!
-Tiff

 

[MGoBlue]

Sorry - I already found an error. We did OFA prelim at 5 months, not 6 months! So one of your pups might be just at the right age!
Sorry again.
-Tiff

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

These questions you should go back to your breeder with, since without their approval and guidance you will not be able to show or breed unless you have a full registration. If they were bought as pets, they will have a limited registration.

 

[absolutely new]

They both have full registration.

 

[newfvo]

Here is the health screening protocol that I follow with all of my Newfs, regardless of if I ever would consider them for use in my breeding program. This is also the protocol that I require all of my puppy owners to follow, show or pet, to assist me in making informed decisions on future breedings.

Twelve Months:
Heart - screened by a Board certified Cardiologist
Patella's - screened by a vet who has experience in orthopedics
Hips & Elbows - x-rays sent to OFA for preliminary reading.

Twenty Four Months:
Hips & Elbows - x-rays sent to OFA for certification.
Tyroid - Blood drawn,sent to lab for evaluation and results certified by OFA (can be done at 12 months)

Cystinuria - you can have blood drawn or even cheek swabs sent to a lab for this test at any age, as early as mere weeks old.

I personally (and I know others on this list have a differing opinion which is fine)would not evaluate hips or elbows before a year old. I feel that there is still too much growth that will occur after 5 or 6 months old and you don't know what form that growth will take. Will the growth progress in the same manner as it did up to the 5 or 6 month mark? Possibly, but you can also have deviations in the growth cycle which always continues, in a giant breed, after that 6 month mark. I require prelim's so that I have a good guess as to what is going on, what the parents are producing, and if I wish to continue to use the parents again based on the results of the entire litters results without having to wait two years.

One thing I will respectfully disagree with Tiff on is the statement that unilateral dysplasia is not genetic in nature. There are no studies, that I have found, that support this theory nor has a genetic marker for any form of dysplasia (bilateral or unilateral)been identified to date. Until that happens all we can do is guess the mode of inheritance. I personally have knowledge of an entire litter of 6 puppies who all had unilateral hip dysplasia (5 on the left hip, 1 on the right)who were out of an OFA Excellent female and a male who had unilateral moderate hip dysplasia of the left hip. Was it just a coincidence, could 6 puppies all living in seperate homes have injuries to one hip? Possible but I don't think too probable. Again this is just my own standards but I would not consider breeding any Newf who had either unilateral or bilateral hip dysplasia unless I could document specifically when an injury occured to cause it.

While there is no "perfect" dog, the future health of the breed lies squarly on the shoulders of those who make the decision to produce a litter of puppies. I am not directing this statement to anyone in particular and not just as a response to the initial post. I just feel that there are enough Newfs out there (just ask those of us in Rescue)who are the product of someone who has made excuses as to why their dog didn't clear, didn't bother to do the tests, wanted to take the chance of producing that 1 perfect puppy or just wanted to breed a litter because they had two Newfs. I also have very little respect for those who allow a dog to be used in a breeding program just because he/she is a top winning conformation champion but has no health clearances. There is more to it than just a pretty exterior package.

Ok, I am off my soapbox. I apologize if I was preaching to the choir!

 

[Angela]

Hi Susan,
I wish there were more breeders like you who require the puppies to be screened at certain ages, I really admire you for that.
I just have a question about the owners screening, do you reimburse the owners, is it part of your contract etc?Do you have problems with some owners refusing to have the screening done?
I'm not a breeder, but it worries me that top winning, highly popular dogs are being used extensively as stud dogs when not all clearances have been met. I have heard of several in the last year

 

[newfvo]

Angela,

There are a couple of ways to do it.

One way is to charge less up front for a puppy with the understanding (in writing of course!) that additional expenses for these tests will be incured in the future bringing the total purchase price in line with the rest of the market.

Another way is to charge full market price and then refund money for every test they complete. This way is less enforceable and takes more time on the breeders part to administer but can be a great reward for doing the right thing.

Either way, the key is to educate the new puppy buyer on the importance of why they need to do the testing and get them to want to do it for the sake of their dog.

If someone is not willing to do the testing or doesn't comply with the written agreement, then they don't want a dog from me. I hound them (literally and figuratively!) until they decide to get it done or I take the dog and have it done myself!

As for top champions being used without clearances, well, I feel that you have an even greater responsibility to the breed and it's future health when you reach that level. You have a responsibility to say no to the potential of reproducing problems.

Just my two cents...

 

[sarnewfie]

unilateral has been discussed by many vets in my area, and all of them have the same opinion, that scientifically it just does not add up to genetic link.
i have to say this, a newf i know had penn hip down early, normally penn hip is pretty darn close to ofa, that being anything to the left of the halfway mark are going to ofa fair to excellent, this newf had a good penn hip score, no laxity, fine alignment, of course yes growth yet to do, but this newf also is a very very very very active newf, and one that we feared would at some point in time, during the critical growth spurt would tork, twist or pull that hip just enough to not pass, sure enough borderline, did not get the fair we though she would on the one hip, sorry but we all have our opinions, and breeding will never be set in stone, there are to many variations that can occur, and who knows, 20 years down the road we may find we are doing things all wrong.
myself, if there is a newf borderline unilateral, with a great gait and lots to offer the breed in other ways, i will not ditch that newf from my program but, will however, make sure the stud used is cleared and littermates are cleared.
there is to many varying opinions on the unilateral subject that i will be comfortable ditching an otherwise great dog.
i also require prelims so i know how the dog is growing, and how to guide my people on diet, suppliments, excersise, and precations.

 

[ROM Newf]

My vet is also saying that unilateral dysplasia is most likely inherited and not due to injury.