Heartbroken........I need a shoulder to cry on....

[abrodhagen]

Hey gang....
Yet another incident with my Newf Toby...
Had my 2 nephews and niece over for the weekend....came out to go to Santa parade....of course I knew I should use management with Toby....he'd been around my niece before but not the two nephews...
He was leashed when they walked in the house and began to bark, lung and growl excessively.....
had to confine him to his space in the garage since they've been here.....Hubby tried them again today while I was at work and the same reaction......I scared to death....this dog has already bitten and I would never forgive myself if he disfigured one of my family members.....
I am so heartbroken over this I don't know where to turn.....
I have fallen in love with this dog....want to be the one to give him a good life.
I was referred to yet another trainer who has great success with large breed dogs and his suggestion was to basically not take on the liability of this dog.....now in the meantime...the first person information he received was from my daughter , who was the bite victim the first time and I'm sure she is not attached to this dog...so I'm not sure how the conversation went but in the meantime he feels the dog is a fear biter and to train him not to bite is like trying to suppress his fear and as he suggested , he did not want me to waste my money on him.....
How discouraging is that?
I'm horrified and sooooo sad......What to do from here is making me ill.....

Please , I need support on this......

 

[kat051207]

I don't have any advice on the issue, but I feel for you. I truly hope that you are able to work something out.

 

[Windancer]

I don't know the history here..can I assume he was a rescue? So you have no history on him? I have to say, you can take him to meet the trainer for a definite opinion, but after that, you are forced to confine him virtually at all times in case someone accidently comes into your yard. The liability is just to great for the risk...I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I agree with the trainer at this point...The next question is what to do with him ?

 

[pabusinesswoman]

I would check with many in rescue to see what they would suggest. They have several resources and may have seen similar instances before. Ronnie also had some major issues with their Annabelle and have had great success with her with working with a trainer very hard. You may want to send them some PMs.

It sounds like he has had bad experiences with children before. From all posts I have caught about this (I may have missed some) it was something to do with children. Was there a similar stimulus in both instances? IE. Did the childeren have something in there hand he was afraid he may be hit with? Did they look a certain way? IE- all have baseball hats.. etc. Were they not respectful to his space? IE- Did they come right at him?

Just a few thoughts- I would definitely check with the pros on this.
There has to be a "trigger" if he is fine other wise. What is it?
Is he neutered? It could be something with dominance.
Consider crate training so he can be comfined when children are around
If worst comes to worst.. perhaps talk to rescue also about a possible rehome that you could periodically visit. The safety of your daughter and the Newf are at stake. If he bites again.. they will put him down. Normally the first time they bite they are put down. Who knows what could happen to your daughter or other little ones. An older couple with no little ones may be what he needs if there is a negativity with kids.

The biting and liablity issue... Knowing you have an issue you need to be extremely zellous. I had a Chow for 11 years before she passed. Some insurances did not want to insure the house due to the stigma of them attacking everone who comes down the pike. I purchased her as a pup and laid the groundwork ASAP. I had sooooooo many people tell me to put her down since she would attack my children... etc. It was about sickining. Little did they know she did Therapy work for years. She was excellent with the kids and in fact gave me a harder time then she ever did the kids. That being said. I did my research on the breed and I knew what I was getting into. I wanted a protector with her since the dog, the pistol, and I went on all day hikes when I was still single. She was my backup.

It also came down to knowing your dog. She (the chow) also gave off "signs". When she was older she really started to dispise large crowds. If we had a family gathering or a big birthday party for the girls, she was put upstairs so she was not put in a stressful situation. About that same time, we also quit the therapy work and would also only go on outings on her days she was feeling well. At that point, her arthritis was getting pretty bad.

Unlike your boy, I knew her from a pup and I was a VERY strong alpha. I actually had to lighten up my training with Sadie. It was night and day. She was allowed to get away with ANY aggression. It was not acceptable. Also, she was never left alone with the children for an incidence to occur.

I hope this helps. Good luck.

 

[BigJimsmagik]

I'm going to be a negative nelly here and take my Lumps for posting this but.....

It is great that you all work so very hard with these poor broken Dogs, and most are fixable But some are just not. As anguishing as it is, there is a point when you have to choose between your kids and peoples safety over the possibility you might be able to save this dog. There is ultimately going to be an accident. I don't care how careful you are or what preventatives you take. eventually he will get out, there will be a gate or door left open. Someone will forget and "do" something to upset him. A kid will hop the fence to get a ball or stick fingers in to "pet the doggie"

My Grandmother had this little Maltese dog. He was spoiled rotten. One day while I was working and my mom and gran were babysitting, my baby pulled herself up on my gran to stand with the furniture. That little dog (that bit my gran even at times) attacked my daughter unprovoked. He drew blood in her face at several spots and Luckily the little scars faded but if you look they are still there. excuses were made for the dog.
He was "kept away" and eventually all was forgotten. But I sure didn't.
I often got angry when she would come with him to visit knowing he had bitten. She would hold him in her arm while my little one pulled at her Nanna for attention. I had no choice at the time but to continue to have my mom babysit. ( I had lost faith in her as well) I was a single mom with an abusive ex.
Eventually she got too close a couple of years later and she was blamed for something that "upset" that dog. She had more scars on her face to heal. He also Bit my son when he was a baby. after that he was no longer allowed in the house. (took him to bite my kids 3 times before something was done! and in my opinion not enough)
I forever resented my Grandmother for it. I no longer allowed her to babysit. I resented my mom for allowing her to have him at the house.
I suppose now I have forgiven a little and try not to let it rear it's ugly head but I never forgot. I have 3 kids now and would still never trust her to watch my kids for her carelessness and choosing the dog over her own great grandbabies. He is gone now but it still haunts me it could have been so much worse. Thank heavens he was not a giant breed, imagine how bad it could have been.

I guess my long winded point is.....Can you live with the consequences of it happening again and the fall out and resentment you will have to live with when he bites one of yours or someone elses again. is it worth the risk and the cost of your relationship with your family?

I do not envy your position or the choices you will have to make. I myself have been there with one of my dogs several years ago.
I had to put my 2 cents in as I experienced my children being bitten by someones dog that was known to bite.

 

[R Taft]

I have to make it very clear that we had a very aggressive dog with Annabelle.........
BUT.......And this is a big but. Both Mike and I are very confident animal trainers, horses and dogs and we live on a farm miles away from anywhere. And we did not allow any confrontations with Annabelle until we were sure she was fine. we totally controlled her environment. And even though we were used to training dogs, we still needed help, awesome help, from Scott. he was a dog behaviorist who re-homed and rescued abused Rottweilers. Scoot has extensive kindly knowledge, which he shared with us, because we made a commitment with him. We gave him initially three times a week with Annabelle and for us to extend this with daily training with us.
The first Vet dog behaviorist told us to put her to sleep. I was at wits end and luckily found Scott. He said no amount of money could fix her, but that she needed total commitment. I slept with her on the floor for nearly a month when she was at her worst. This is when she tried to kill Tess and bark at Mike. Not all of this went on NN, because I thought I might get some negatives and at the time did not need this.
Scott also said she was a fear biter and she needed for someone to give her their whole commitment. Mike and I talked about it and made the decision, which was full on for a month. He committed to Tessa wholly and I to Annabelle. We had to keep them separated and Annabelle was leashed to me 100% or in our very secure Kennel run. And she was only in the run if I was not home, at work. We still have scars on Tessa's neck and Mike's arm from that period.
So I will never say it is easy..........And if you do not have the time and confidence it might never happen. And it is not about not loving the dog. Sometimes things are not possible.
If you do not have the support I had with Annabelle, from both my hubby and Scott, I do not know if you can make it. That said, I now have the most beautiful gorgeous girl. But even now i am a very strict dog owner. I love them to bits and we have a lot of fun, but Mike and I are always in charge and we do not allow anything that shows aggression. I wish i could package up Scott and send him to you
Do not ever be to hard on yourself. you can only do what you can do. If it was me, I would ask wrknwf, Jane for some help. you are at least in the same country and she works with a lot of rescues too. Experience does count. Love can not make everything good...........Ronnie

 

[abrodhagen]

Thanks Ronnie...I just sent a very long winded message to Jane and gave her all the information I knew.....I have to make a very educated and hard decision here........thanks......

 

[R Taft]

Thanks Ronnie...I just sent a very long winded message to Jane and gave her all the information I knew.....I have to make a very educated and hard decision here........thanks......

Just remember, I will be thinking of you and you have my support. Some newf rescues can be very difficult. And you can only do your best. Thinking of you, Ronnie

 

[OneItalianFlower]

I have no advice but I certainly wish you the best. I know that you will consider all the options and that whatever you choose will be the best for everyone involved.

 

[Thule's Mom]

Just remember, I will be thinking of you and you have my support. Some newf rescues can be very difficult. And you can only do your best. Thinking of you, Ronnie

Ronnie gave you great advise, and just because you might not be able to handle this situation yourself, there's most likely someone out there that can, even if you can't keep him yourself. I believe Newf Friends sent Liam to stay with a behaviourist to help him with issues he had before he was adopted (not aggression issues, something else). Toby will be OK - you're on the right track here. Just do whatever you need to do to keep everyone safe until Toby gets the help he needs.

Sending lots of positive thoughts your way that Jane can help.

Deb & Thule

 

[BoundlessNewfs]

I truly feel for you, and, like you, would want to do everything I could to "save" an animal. However...these dogs can do much more than bite. They can kill. They are BIG and powerful. Some dogs cannot be rehabilitated. You're in my thoughts and prayers.

 

[wrknnwf]

Angela, I am composing a PM to you, so watch for it later today. I do think there is hope if, as Ronnie says, you and your family are completely committed to working with Toby.

I do think we need to find the right trainer in your area. Am I correct in thinking that Toronto is the biggest city near you? Please PM me with the name of the trainer(s) you contacted so far, so I can narrow my search.

 

[4ondafloor]

I truly feel for you, and, like you, would want to do everything I could to "save" an animal. However...these dogs can do much more than bite. They can kill. They are BIG and powerful. Some dogs cannot be rehabilitated. You're in my thoughts and prayers.

My thoughts exactly Laurel.

 

[4ondafloor]

To add here:
I'm going to say this as plainly as I know how and it is certainly not meant to offend so don't anyone chastise me for it BUT..
I Think you need to be discussing all this with the rescue folks who placed this newf with you NOT this public forum.
I would never have placed a newf with aggression issues in a family with any age child...PERIOD.
I don't know all the details of HOW he came to be placed with you but that aside, you are running a very serious risk here.
Ronnie is certainly the exception to the rule. There's no doubting the wonders that she and her husband helped to facilitate with Annabelle. Unless you have the wherewithall to achieve the end results as they did you fight a battle that may not be won.
Get back with the rescue org that placed this newf with you. Communicate with them.
I feel certain that they will help you but they have to know about it first.

 

[newfam]

I am not sure I have to many answers but I do have experience with fear biting. While my husband was deployed I watched a german shepherd puppy, she was about 4 month old and she was already showing signs of doing this. Mostly with the children or other children that would walk by. Praise God I didn't watch her longer than a month, if I had to I think some things would have had to change. With having children in the house this gets to be a slippery slope I think. You can't give Toby the total commitment that he may require, having to chose between the kids and the dog for your attention isn't fair to either. I think you do need to talk the rescue org. I don't think that you can give Toby want he needs right now. They would know where the best place for Toby is and I don't think a home with children is going to be it. The German Shepherd puppy I was telling you about grew up and is still a fear biter 'specially if on a leash and is unpredictable about it. The owners are still working with her but the trainer that they had told them the same thing that they should put her down. I know this sounds grim and I am sorry, I will continue to pray that the right thing happens for you and your family

 

[wrknnwf]

Just to let you all know...Angela's "child" is 28 years old.

 

[wrknnwf]

Since Toby has not shown aggression with everyone, there is every chance that the rescue organization never saw this behavior. Also, most foster homes are not experienced dog trainers or behaviorists, so they may not have noticed or recognized subtle body language or anything that should have raised a flag. If they did have an inkling (and since Angela's daughter is 28) they may have felt that he was placeable in a home with adults, but not one with young children. Also, a lot depends on how long this dog was in foster care. Typically, it takes at least two weeks before dogs tend to show their true colors and many foster dogs are not under foster care long enough for them to exhibit their normal temperaments.

Sending the dog back to rescue may not be advisable unless the rescue organization has means and knowledge to work on behavioral issues. Otherwise, they may end up passing a problem on to another family. This will NOT help this dog to be passed around if his problem stems from fear and uncertainty. I do think the organization should be advised, however. This is a valuable lesson for them if they did place the dog incorrectly or, they may have resources or history on this dog that could aide his treatment.

And, IF this dog is a fear biter, his care and behavior modification should be under the supervision of a trained behaviorist in an appropriate setting (ie. the home or wherever he exhibits the behavior).

Offering advice in a dog forum can be helpful in many cases, but without first hand observation and all the facts/history, etc., it may be misdirected or certain things assumed (such as the age of the children).

Finally, it may take a few false starts in finding the right behaviorist to help, but if Angela has the support of her family and friends, I would like to see her try before throwing in the towel.

 

[newfam]

I'm sorry I totally forgot that the "child" was an adult. I guess that does changes things a bit, I just know that this road Toby seems to be on is a very long one but as long as EVERYONE in the family is on board then I think you should give it everything you've got.

 

[4ondafloor]

Jane I agree however she did mention her concern for neighbor children as well. That also prompted my response.
Two weeks is generally the tell all for temperment, yes. It is not written in stone however. It some times takes longer.
I wish her luck. I feel that liability is a serious issue here. Readily accepting the liability for your own family is one thing.
The unpredictable nature of people as a whole and what their responses would be should a large breed dog bite a member outside the family is another.
I hope you can guide her to a successful outcome and the newf can eventually overcome the fear.
Good luck to you both.

 

[BigJimsmagik]

How does the daughter feel? Even though she is 28 she is still her daughter.

She has also mentioned that there has been children in the home so the risk is still there no matter what the age. what about neighborhood kids? Kids don't think, what if one of them opens the door he is kept behind?
these are all things that have to be thought about.
If he is still showing aggression towards her daughter who lives in the house there is a problem especially if he has been there for some time with no improvement.

If the rescue is aware of the situation and he is returned to rescue should they not be able to place him properly? and have or be able to recommend the resources for someone that wants to try to help the dog?