Hank is becoming aggressive
- Thread starter hankbaby
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janices
New member
There are alternative drugs for AHA. Pred is probably the cheapest.
hankbaby
New member
Yeah there are other drugs for his disease it's just that I can't afford 200-400 a month on meds alone for him and the side effects from are also pretty god awful as well. As far I know none of his littermates have had any issues in regards to health or aggression. I honestly think it's the prednisone, becuase up until 2 months ago I had never seem him show the slightest bit of aggression towards another animal of any kind.
4ondafloor
New member
I was of the mindset that unchecked behavior leads to aggression...regardless of med involvement. Although, its been proven that meds are certainly a catalyst in some cases.
We had numerous discussions about the subject last year. (behavior modification where there were no meds involved)
Prdmary
New member
From my experience with aggression, it did not show up until about 12 months old.....or at least not what "I" recognized as aggression. When he was younger, I thought it was just that he "played" rough. So, assuming that the aggression is showing up now as opposed to earlier due to the steroids, may not be completely correct. It may be the problem, and it may not be the problem. But, since you really have no options to change the meds, you've got to deal with the aggression in another way.
Definitely no dog parks. Some dogs just dont' get along with ALL other dogs. I mean, heck, do you like ALL other people? No. But you need to be able to get along. I would defintely start going to obedience classes so that you can work with him around other dogs, but in a controlled environment. Large classes can be overwhelming though. I would still recommend getting recommendations for a good behaviorist and start working with them also. If you leave this alone, it will only get worse. You can't change the meds............
Definitely no dog parks. Some dogs just dont' get along with ALL other dogs. I mean, heck, do you like ALL other people? No. But you need to be able to get along. I would defintely start going to obedience classes so that you can work with him around other dogs, but in a controlled environment. Large classes can be overwhelming though. I would still recommend getting recommendations for a good behaviorist and start working with them also. If you leave this alone, it will only get worse. You can't change the meds............
Ohana Mom
New member
I agree with Prdmary 100%. You know you have meeds in the equation - but you don't truly know what's causing this.
We worked with a Behaviorist when our first was a baby - just trying to learn all we could. And I will probably get flamed for this - but he did not recommend dog parks in general. Dogs don't just walk into a group loose and instantly become a pack. It takes time for them to figure out pack order etc. Some will pick on others, some will submit etc. It can create a lot of undue stress on some dogs. I'd stay clear of the parks. We don't have behavior issues- and we never do them. We do socialize them - all the time. But in a controlled way. Like Prdmary said - in an obedience class, even on a leash at petsmart etc...
A good behaviorist should be able to work you through this even with the meds. I wish you luck.
We worked with a Behaviorist when our first was a baby - just trying to learn all we could. And I will probably get flamed for this - but he did not recommend dog parks in general. Dogs don't just walk into a group loose and instantly become a pack. It takes time for them to figure out pack order etc. Some will pick on others, some will submit etc. It can create a lot of undue stress on some dogs. I'd stay clear of the parks. We don't have behavior issues- and we never do them. We do socialize them - all the time. But in a controlled way. Like Prdmary said - in an obedience class, even on a leash at petsmart etc...
A good behaviorist should be able to work you through this even with the meds. I wish you luck.
2Paws
New member
I would also have to agree with Prdmary and Ohana Mom regarding dog parks. I haven't had behavior issues either but our socialization is always done in a controlled way. I also make sure high value items are given out in a controlled situation.
I hope you find a reputable behavorist that can help you and Hank.
I hope you find a reputable behavorist that can help you and Hank.
Clyde
New member
No expert here, but I do know he needs the pred with that condition. I just wonder if some kind of anti depressant in a very low dose could help, I doubt behaviour mod/training will help if it is chemically induced behaviour. Ask about antidepressants in the smallest dose, worth a discussion anyway with vet. Roid rage seems very logical to me.
GOOD LUCK. -Michelle
GOOD LUCK. -Michelle
4ondafloor
New member
I definitely agree with all who said no dog park! We don't go at all. Been once and that was enough. Too much posturing and Pae wouldn't even go in the gate. She hated it.
Hey Donna, I wasn't implying that you had or have an aggressive newf LOL I was referring to the conversations you and I had extensively about Little One and Pae last year when I took a bite to the hand. Your advice then was spot on and helped solve my issue quickly. I guess I could have expanded in my last comment earlier to be a bit more clear. Sorry about that.
Hey Donna, I wasn't implying that you had or have an aggressive newf LOL I was referring to the conversations you and I had extensively about Little One and Pae last year when I took a bite to the hand. Your advice then was spot on and helped solve my issue quickly. I guess I could have expanded in my last comment earlier to be a bit more clear. Sorry about that.
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I think one thing you need to consider is that, even if the meds are the cause, the more he gets to "practice" being aggressive, the more ingrained it may become. If you can't substitute another medication, the things you should probably consider are...rehoming your puppy girl to protect her, keeping him out of any and all situations that might provoke an attack, or even (I know this sounds awful) having him put down. IMHO, death is not the worst thing that can happen. Leading an unhappy life IS.
Or perhaps you could find a home better suited for him where he can get off the pred and on something else. If you do that, though, you have to be aware of the risks of rehoming an aggressive dog. It has to be made perfectly clear, what the problems are and what needs to be done specifically. I believe there is a home for every dog, but some are difficult to find.
Or perhaps you could find a home better suited for him where he can get off the pred and on something else. If you do that, though, you have to be aware of the risks of rehoming an aggressive dog. It has to be made perfectly clear, what the problems are and what needs to be done specifically. I believe there is a home for every dog, but some are difficult to find.
ardeagold
New member
LOL...I didn't read it that way at all. I just wanted to make it clear that I've never really had to deal with any sort of truly aggressive Newf (except Mira who can become aggressive if she's on lead and another off lead dog runs up to her - off lead, she's wonderful).
Goldens, however, are another story altogether. We had one.......idiopathic aggression. It was NOT pleasant, but he stayed here until he died of cancer at 10 yrs of age. We had to be very careful, and I learned a great deal about dogs (both the signals that determine who's really the aggressor and how they target their "prey") throughout that time.
And in the OP's situation, I'd say to speak to the Vet to see if there's anything else that can be done (perhaps something to help offset this manifestation of the Pred), and a Behaviorist...to see if s/he thinks s/he can help in this situation.
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Garden_girl
New member
I went back over the things you've said about Hank. In one breath, you said high value items are given separately and in another, Hank attacked Haley for a bone.
Bones are a high value resource in our house, they are much coveted. When we give our dogs bones, they are crated. When each dog finishes, I release the dog from the crate and remove the bone.
I have very nice dogs, no aggression issues, but I know if a couple of them wanted another dogs bone, he/she would not hesitate to try to take the bone away from the other dog and a fight would ensue-no question. I don't see this as aggression, but an aggressive act when there is fighting over a resource.
Meals are a different story, they happen like clockwork at 6 AM & 6 PM daily. They don't consider them high value and we've taught them they are not to touch each others bowls when they are finished. They are fed all together in the kitchen.
Lets take that attack off the table for now. We are left with the dog park issue, unless there are more problems that you haven't mentioned?
I don't know about your dog park, but our local park is an accident waiting to happen. On any given evening, there could be up to 50 dogs at a time, chasing after balls, running into one another and people. It is utter chaos and enough to send a hyper dog over the edge. I'm not making excuses for Hank, but it certainly can heighten emotions (a hundred fold) for any dog that is the least bit excitable. I imagine that it could be a highly stressful situation for Hank, even though you thought you were doing a good thing for him.
It is easy to say I think it's the pred., so there's nothing I can do about it. It is much more difficult and time consuming to try and work through this, but I'm sure you believe Hank is worth it. I would agree that Hanks aggression *can* have an impact on your puppy, and then you will have two dogs with issues instead of one. So, SOMETHING has to be done.
I understand you have money issues, there's no shame in that. Who doesn't these days? Maybe you can't afford a behaviorist right now, an initial consultation is around $200, give or take and they usually last 3 hours. Then they make recommendations based on information & observation. Above all else, consulting a behaviorist can give you some peace of mind.
If you can't afford it right now (but I believe it's the best way to go) find a class/trainer that will take dogs with aggression issues, one on one is even better and around here, you can get a knowledgeable trainer that will work with you for $30 an hour.
There's no reason to put him on his back to make him calm down. Just removing him from the park will do that. You don't want to create a situation in which he fears you, either. You could be teaching him to fear humans and direct his aggression toward people, too. Even if the pred is at the heart of the matter, learning how to modify his behavior will make you more confident in sticky situations (always on lead for Hank from now on). I have a lot of very good materials on training and working with aggressive dogs. If you email me, I will send them to you.Garden_girl@Graffiti.net Could be helpful so that you know what to look for in a trainer.
Bones are a high value resource in our house, they are much coveted. When we give our dogs bones, they are crated. When each dog finishes, I release the dog from the crate and remove the bone.
I have very nice dogs, no aggression issues, but I know if a couple of them wanted another dogs bone, he/she would not hesitate to try to take the bone away from the other dog and a fight would ensue-no question. I don't see this as aggression, but an aggressive act when there is fighting over a resource.
Meals are a different story, they happen like clockwork at 6 AM & 6 PM daily. They don't consider them high value and we've taught them they are not to touch each others bowls when they are finished. They are fed all together in the kitchen.
Lets take that attack off the table for now. We are left with the dog park issue, unless there are more problems that you haven't mentioned?
I don't know about your dog park, but our local park is an accident waiting to happen. On any given evening, there could be up to 50 dogs at a time, chasing after balls, running into one another and people. It is utter chaos and enough to send a hyper dog over the edge. I'm not making excuses for Hank, but it certainly can heighten emotions (a hundred fold) for any dog that is the least bit excitable. I imagine that it could be a highly stressful situation for Hank, even though you thought you were doing a good thing for him.
It is easy to say I think it's the pred., so there's nothing I can do about it. It is much more difficult and time consuming to try and work through this, but I'm sure you believe Hank is worth it. I would agree that Hanks aggression *can* have an impact on your puppy, and then you will have two dogs with issues instead of one. So, SOMETHING has to be done.
I understand you have money issues, there's no shame in that. Who doesn't these days? Maybe you can't afford a behaviorist right now, an initial consultation is around $200, give or take and they usually last 3 hours. Then they make recommendations based on information & observation. Above all else, consulting a behaviorist can give you some peace of mind.
If you can't afford it right now (but I believe it's the best way to go) find a class/trainer that will take dogs with aggression issues, one on one is even better and around here, you can get a knowledgeable trainer that will work with you for $30 an hour.
That isn't the best way to handle the situation. Stern voice, yes. Pull him off the dog, yes. Snap on his leash and remove him from the park immediately.
There's no reason to put him on his back to make him calm down. Just removing him from the park will do that. You don't want to create a situation in which he fears you, either. You could be teaching him to fear humans and direct his aggression toward people, too. Even if the pred is at the heart of the matter, learning how to modify his behavior will make you more confident in sticky situations (always on lead for Hank from now on). I have a lot of very good materials on training and working with aggressive dogs. If you email me, I will send them to you.Garden_girl@Graffiti.net Could be helpful so that you know what to look for in a trainer.
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Tula
New member
I too have no use for dog parks - just too chaotic! I also feel the same way about doggie day care. Tula is very dominant and will occasionally pin one of our other dogs. We took her to a trainer for an evaluation and did a small obedience class. We've learned what her triggers are. Also, if I sense she is "wound up" I keep her tethered to me. We also make her work alot...sit, stay etc. She is very smart. Kim
ardeagold
New member
When I just read GG's post...I picked up this. I never saw it before...sorry!
Ummmm....I would no more do this than try to pick up a rattle snake with my bare hands. A hyper/stressed/adrenaline charged dog isn't something to mess with....especially if you think it's 'Roid Rage.
I've read/seen articles and clips about flipping a dog and holding it down, but I completely disagree with this approach. In fact, I think it's absurd advice. What Garden Girl said is 100% correct.
If you watch dogs closely, when a fight ensues and one ends up on it's back with the other posturing over it .... the top dog did NOT flip the bottom dog. The bottom dog rolled over himself, giving in.
The top dog will posture over the bottom dog (sometimes putting mouth on neck but NOT biting, or cheek to cheek)....and will sometimes lay on bottom dog just to make a point and give things a chance to calm down, and also to make sure that when they move away, bottom dog won't lunge at them.
I have NEVER, EVER, NEVER seen one dog try to flip another onto it's back. I have seen puppies (with their mothers), roll onto their backs...giving into correction with mom holding them down with mouth on neck (but never puncturing...just holding). I've seen adult males roll onto their backs when they don't want to fight a losing battle...with another male posturing over them. But, forcing one on it's back just doesn't happen.
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OMG Donna! I missed that too. Good thing GG was watching. If you click on my profile (my name), you will find some articles by the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior in the About Me section. One addresses dominance training. You will find, on page 3 of the pdf, the same info Donna mentions.
Lori
New member
Just wondering if you have asked the vet about getting the other meds online. It's amazing how much mark-up is in the meds at the vet. I have gotten scripts from my vet, to either order online or to take to the human pharmacy (if there is a human med that would work in this case.) My vet has also price matched meds for me. Better for them to do this than lose the sale.