good breeder vs bad breeder

[Chad]

Its christmas time and for those of you who are thinking of getting a puppy you might wabt to follow this thread. I have noticed many people make referrences to good breeders and they also make referrences about bad breeders. I am just curious why people make such broad and general comments. So how about some honost comments on what truely makes a good breeder. In my opinion a good breeder is someone who cares about the breed and is willing to accept any dog back for any reason. And in some cases give full refunds! Someone who trys to breed for a specific purpose such as making the breed better. Someone that truely cares about the breed and does all of the proper tests before breeding there dogs (just because you can breed a dog at a year old doesnt mean you should) Also breeders that advertise CH in front of names doesnt mean you are getting a CH, if breeders were honost they would tell you they are lucky if they get 1 CH out of a litter. Nobody can guarantee you will get a Show puppy.
Contracts aren't a bad thing but
like any contract it should protect all parties breed,breeder,and buyer. Ask about getting the pick of the litter, make sure the breeder posts pictures on a weekly basis. Make sure all of the sire and dams documents on health issues are included in your paperwork. You should also have the breeder explain the difference between full and partial registration.
(bad breeders) What makes a bad breeder hummmmmmmmmmmm in my opinion a bad breeder is anyone who (1.)doesn't test there dogs and breeds them before they are ready. (2.) 8 out of 10 litters don't produce atleast akc standard pups.
(3.) someone who doesnt care what kind of homes there dogs go to (4.) someone who doesnt inform people of the cost and responsibility a large breed dog will cost. (5.)not explaining that a cute puppy will be a big drooly doggie.
(remember) just because someone is a first time breeder doesnt mean you shouldnt buy from them, people talk about breeders having thirteen dogs (so what!)that doesnt make them a puppy mill. If people advertise on the internet all over the place that doesnt make them a bad breeder either.
If reputable breeders try and tell you they don't make money then scratch your head and do the math
8 or 10 times $1500 dollars!

Now money is certainly not a reason to breed but if you are planning on breeding then I recommend you find a mentor. Someone who has been breeding a long time to help. Now I am sure I haven't covered all the pro's and con's and everyones opinion is welcomed

 

[dogger]

You also need to consider the environment of dogs.
Are the puppies in the home?
Are the Socialized?
Are they being homed at 6 weeks or at 12 after they have had a chance to learn manners from momma and the breeder?
How many times has the bitch been bred? Is the breeder active in your local club and or does the breeder show?
Who is the vet.
Does the breeder want contact with the new owners?
Do they have a good reputation in the newfy world?
Will they give you the names and numbers of others who have bought puppies from them?
There are a ton of questions.
How do you feel when you interact with them?

Here is a question I have for the breeders on Newf Net. Do you or would you advertise your puppies in the paper? If not, why? If yes, why?

[ 11-29-2004, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: dogger ]

 

[Codes]

If reputable breeders try and tell you they don't make money then scratch your head and do the math

A good breeder is lucky to break even, let alone make money. It takes alot of thought, time, planning and yes, money, to produce a nice litter. If you don't own the male then you must pony up the money for the stud fee. Then there are the progesterone tests that need to be done not to mention other pregnancy/whelping related expenses. God forbid the bitch runs into trouble during whelp and needs a C-section...$$$$$ Or if the pups have trouble or become ill. The bills add up quickly in no time. I'm sure there are times when things run smoothly and the breeder may turn a profit. A good breeder often times puts that money right back into his/her kennel.

 

[Chad]

How many times would you breed a bitch if she has had a C-section. why are the puppy sick? What makes a bad breeding? If you hire a stud what do you truely know about him?

 

[sarnewfie]

i like your avatar darkwing.
are you a breeder?
if not than how can you make such assumptions?
it continues to amaze me how people who dont walk the walk continually say that breeders are making money
well that is news to me.
my hubby i surprised and shocked, he "thought" there would be lots of money in this, when i told him what i was gonna be doing when we met, he said oh wow we are gonna make lots o dollars.
i said wrong.
if the first litter goes textbook?
maybe
but each consecutive breeding after?
oh wow.
you just dont want to know how far in the hole we are.
it is like my stain glass work,.
an expensive hobby.
LOL

 

[dogger]

Considering you dont just let the bitch in with the puppies and for the first 3 weeks (im guessing) you need to be there 24/7 every 2 hours (at least) so you can let every puppy feed and let momma stimilate a potty there is no way you can work a normal job during this time. Therefore, the time commitment alone for the first month, if you put it into an hourly wage and time taken off a 'normal' job using your vacation time to whelp a litter plus all the other expenses. I can see how one easily ends up in the hole.

 

[ardeagold]

Darkwing...most of your points are valid, and I agree...except for the money one. The more you make, the more you spend...on the dogs!! They get new buildings, new fences, new beds, Vet bills, training costs, showing costs (for those who do), grooming costs, etc. etc. Believe me...it's expensive!!!

The problem is that if you breed, and you decide to breed "BIG" (lots of dogs), then you have HUGE expenses. If you breed "SMALL" you still have expenses all year long...for the dog's entire life, whether it's producing or not (unless you rehome them to make room for another that you can breed and show).

I'm not crazy about advertising puppies, period. However, do we and have we done it? Of course we have. Sometimes you just have more puppies than you have homes prearranged. Or...you have more of one sex, more of one color, etc...and your people who have left deposits for a year get those..if there are any that fit their criteria! Plus...sometimes a home for a pup falls through, for various reasons, so you've got to find the pup another one. Yes, it can be done and done well...but you must screen, screen, screen...plus it helps if you know the area well and the buyer is not too far away...which would be the result in "local" papers. Then you can check in depth.

 

[Chad]

thanks for the compliment on the Avatar. Nope I am not a breeder but the more I see the breed standard fall short of what I see it as makes me want to become one. I notice how everyone picks one little thing ratheir than seeing the entire question. This is only to make a point but Sarnewfie how about an average on cost from you on each litter, lets say you have 6 puppies under the average size litter for
newfies and you sell each puppy for $1500 dollars that would equal $9,500.00 go ahead and start doing your expenses from there would yeah? LOL Oh yeah we will assume you have your own stud. No counting the price of the dam or sire. (keep in mind the average litter is between 8 to 10 pups)oh yeah and lets hear about how many times your puppies get sick or how about how many times you have had to have a C section on the same dog. Now everyone knows when you breed dogs there is a possibility to losing your Bitch so how many have you actually lost and most importantly how long have you been breeding! next the puppy gets there first set of shots around 6 weeks old and a check up.... whats the cost on that? LOL if the puppies are shipped the buyer pays the extra expense generally around $300.00 Now for those of you who are gonna say not every litter is that high. save it! we are using averages

 

[ardeagold]

Oh boy...you mentioned that you're not a breeder but with what you've seen of the breed standard falling short - it makes you want to become one? Hmmmmm....maybe that'll be the only way you'll truly understand everything involved. It's costly, and there are ALWAYS unexpected issues that pop up, no matter how well prepared you THINK you are...or how long you've been breeding.

And...speaking for myself, I didn't pick on one little thing instead of answering the whole question. I did focus on the one question I disagreed with (and said I agreed with the rest), plus answered the question about advertising, I believe.

But...since you seem to be directing this to SAR, I think I'll shut up now!

 

[Chad]

Keep in mind I didnt say I was gonna breed for money.
Ardeagold I was typing while you had already posted. LOL Just because one isn't a breeder doesnt mean we can't have an opinion and the open forum for discussion is about pro's and con's ...I am by no means an expert but I have read my share of books. If people want to go to one specific point on this topic (fine) back it up with facts LOL I am not trying to offend anyone but general statements are just that general.......lets see some numbers or better yet, lets hear how often there dogs have medical expenses from the average litter. Then I will take those same numbers and consult my Vet and see how accurate those numbers really are. (now you mention kennels and fences among other misc expenses) how often do kennels fall apart? LOL

 

[Giddyuppy]

Originally posted by Darkwing:
.......lets see some numbers or better yet, lets hear how often there dogs have medical expenses from the average litter. Then I will take those same numbers and consult my Vet and see how accurate those numbers really are. (now you mention kennels and fences among other misc expenses) how often do kennels fall apart? LOL

WOW, Darkwing....Are you sayin' you are questioning the honesty of the members on here, or your vet? My GOODNESS! I sure wouldn't wanna vet I didn't BELIEVE!

 

[Chad]

see what I mean about picking one little thing! rolling eyes My Vet is honost I trust her with my doggies life. LOL

 

[ardeagold]

OOPS...It does sound like I was referring only to money in my first sentence...but I didn't mean it that way. When I mentioned the unexpected things that happen, I was referring to a "breeding program". It's amazing how quickly the best laid plans can go awry! That's in addition to the financial end of things.

It's not that kennels fall apart (although they will if you don't maintain them)...but as a breeder's number of dogs increases, the size and requirements of the building (or enclosure) increases. The cost of a nice kennel can be similar to the cost of a house! Also, there's the A/C and the heat...plus the cost of maintenance and cleaning that building (cleaning/sterilizing agents). Oh..and we also need hot water in there...and a room for bathing and grooming, if possible, plus a storage area for food/supplies.

I believe you have the impression that one litter a year will give you a hefty profit. Not hardly...factor in what everyone's said. But, if you get two breeding females..what then? Well...double the costs. What if one gets sick or isn't worthy of breeding (bad bite, bad temperament, doesn't quite fite the standard)and must be spayed? Gotta get another...triple the costs (or more if the sick one needs medical care for her life).

On and on it goes...and then you NEED a kennel building because you will end up with a lot of dogs to put someplace at least part of the time. Oh...and a fenced play area of quite a bit of space for such big dogs. It's best if they have a pool or pond too, cause Newfs LOVE water and you want them to be happy. There you go! Big bucks!

That's what GOOD breeders do. Make sure the dogs are happy, healthy, sound, have a warm/cool place to be, lots of room to play (including swimming if possible) etc. It all takes money...and LOTS of it.

Plus..if you want to show your dogs, you'll need a handler (unless you already know how)...and a groomer for shows. Plus you'll need a vehicle to transport the big dogs (van or big sport utility)...and the time to do it. Remember, somebody has to be at home to help with the ones still there. It's really hard to do it all if you work (and even if you don't)...so either you quit work, or you pay someone to do some of this for you.

I know you have your opinions, and you do have a right to them...but, we aren't trying to pull the wool over your eyes here...the costs are real, and they're extremely expensive. Most "rich" breeders were rich before they became breeders...or their husband/wife has a very well paying job!

I think you misunderstand the costs. Puppies AREN'T expensive when at the breeders. Except for regular feeding/shots/wormings and the vet checks, they're the least of the costs involved. Your adult dogs are where the costs factor in.

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

It always amazes me how people on the outside seem to be such experts, and ask questions, but don't believe the answers they get. Any breeder making $ is usually skipping over a lot of necessary health clearances and heart checks. And any $ that may be made has to be there years to come in case there are any issues with any of the pups since it is a life long commitment to the pups. Believe me the expenses are there and add up real fast!

 

[swigginton]

I have stayed out of this thread for a while. Before I type anything else I want to say I am not a breeder, but I know many and have spoken with many. And in defense of the many reputable breeders out there I will state this.

The costs associated with breeding are not limited to only the litter produced. Some of the items that come to mind are the following, and I am sure I have forgotten many items to list.

The cost associated with showing a prospective sire or dam can become quite high. Average a 20 to 25 dollar entry fee per day. Now if you are within 100 miles of the show, you can tack on another 20 to 30 dollars for gas and food. And those costs are only if you show your own dog. If you use a handler that can add another 75 dollars. If you need to spend the night, tack on another 50 to 60 dollars. And to finish a dog, it could take 15 to 20 shows depending on the competition.

We have not even talked about health clearances. I don't know the pricing on all the clearances as I have not completed them on Bentley yet. I did do PennHIP with blood work and that was $350.00 alone. I think a full blown cardio test with Doppler can set you back another 300.00 dollars. Elbows, pattelas, OFA and other suggested clearances I will estimate at $350.00 also.

We have not talked about routine vet costs of the parents. Figure about 800 dollars per dog to age two.

Not sure what stud fees are, but I would assume it depends on the caliber of the male. My guess would be for a high profile dog would be in the neighborhood of 1500.00. But that is a guess.

We have not even talked about the purchase of the breeding stock. But figure around 1800.00 per dog and there are no guarantees they will be the standard and pass all the clearances. I also know of breeders, who have purchased a dog for their breeding program and when it was mature did not develop in to what was planned, thus they will not use the dog for breeding.

It would be hard for me to quantify the all the costs associated with breeding a litter as I have not done it. I also am darn sure there are many other costs associated with breeding that I have not stated.

But IMO the costs associated with 2 dogs with the intent of breeding to age 2 would be the following.

Purchase 2 dogs @ 1800 = $3600.00
Health clearances 2@ 1000 = $2000.00
Routine vet bills 2@ 800 = $1600.00
Finishing a CH yourself 2 @ 2000 = $4000.00

So not counting food and grooming etc.... We are now up to $11,200.00 and we do not even have a litter yet and that is assuming both dogs passed their health tests and the dog was owner showed and finished.

So now maybe I have helped explain why reputable breeders don't make any money.

Now throw out some of the costs the non reputable breeders would not have and yes they are making money.

OK, now my question goes out to the many breeders we have on NN. How close did I come to being correct in my assumptions? I am not trying to pry into anyone's personal business, I just have a feeling many people don't take into consideration all of the costs.

In closing, I would like to suggest to Darkwing, prior to making statements "off the cuff" I would suggest you do some due diligence of what it would cost to become a breeder and start tabulating the costs associated with a true honest to God breeding program. If you are any type of a business person, and you do everything the correct way, breeding is at best a break even proposition.

And for the record, Sar and I have had our rounds in the ring regarding breeding, but in this case I agree with her and the other breeders here.

[ 11-30-2004, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: Scott W ]

 

[newfvo]

You did a good job Scott.

I will share the costs associated with my last two litters. The first one was a fairly typical, routine litter with no major issues and the second one, as many of you may remember, was the litter from hell. I look at things a little differently when calculating associated costs. I do not include anything that I would pay even if I was not breeding such as normal food, vet visits and health testing. I would incur those expenses even with a Newf I was not going to be breeding. The only costs I count are those that are the result of my decision to breed. I do not count the cost of initial "set up" expenses such as x-pens, heat lamps, whelping pads, baby scale, puppy food bowls, ect. I will break the expenses down into three main categories, stud dog, brood bitch and puppies. Hold on to your hats, here we go....

Litter #1 (2002)
Stud Dog - $1,462 total expense
Stud Fee - $1,250
Semen Collection - $116 (total for 2)
Shipping - $68 (shipped twice)
Brucilosus Test - $28

Brood Bitch - $421 total expense
Brucilosus Test - $26
Prgestrone Testing - $28 x 4 times = $112
A/I - $58 x 2 = $116
Ultra sound - $65
X-Ray - $70
Oxitosin shot - $32

Puppies - 5 in the litter - $918
Disposable litter supplies - $228
Vacinations - $110 x 3 = $330
Cardiologist Exams - $335
Litter Registration - $25

TOTAL EXPENSE FOR LITTER #1 = $2,801

I sold 2 puppies from this litter for $1,250 each, placed one free of charge in exchange for a beautiful new whelping box, and I kept 2. This litter gave me a NET LOSS of $301. Not too bad.

Litter #2 (2004)
Stud Dog - $1,856 total expense
Stud Fee - $1500
Collection - $134 x 2 = $268
Shipping - $88 (one was a Saturday delivery)

Brood Bitch - $1,930 total expense
Vaginal Culture - $72
Brucilosus Test - $33
Progestron Tests - 6 x $53 = $318
Surgical Implant - $285
A/I - $72
Ultra sound - $72 x 2 = $144
X-ray - $93
Emergency c-section - $685
Emergency Spay - $228

Puppies - 2 in litter - $1490 total expense
Disposable litter supplies - $176
Emergency room visit #1 - $276
Emergency room visit #2 - $390
Emergency rooom visit #3 - $173
Antibiotics - $88
Vacinations - $54 x 3 = $162
Cardiologist Exam - $225

Total Expense for Litter #2 = $5,276 + 2 weeks off work.

I kept one puppy from this litter and placed the other on a co-ownership. This litter gave me a NET LOSS of over $4,500 in just hard costs not counting the time off work.

I hope these examples help people understand what is involved. After this last litter I told my vet to "just say no" if I came in for progestrone testing!

 

[newfvo]

P.S. My $4,500+ puppy is featured in my avatar and I wouldn't trade him for $45,000! He is worth every dime.

 

[Pam G]

Thanks for sharing those costs Susan. I'm sure it will be very helpful for people who are considering breeding. And BTW...That $4,500.00 puppy of yours is just precious as can be!!!!!

 

[NewfyChic]

I didn't hear anyone mention the cost of permits and insurance and not to mention taxes. Since you are technically running a business. I know, I own one too. It ain't cheap!

 

[Chad]

Well shooting off the cuff over here! I hate to point out the obvious but I did state you can't count the price of the stud or the bitch because assuming you did your research you would already have two qualified candidates. LOL secondly lets not forget about pet insurance for your dogs.

Thirdly you kept two and also have a co-ownership for the third. Fourthly your price on newfs seems well below the average cost on the internet. The average is about $1500. Fifthly in two matings you only produced 7 pups and they average 8 to 10 per litter. which would change your figures drastically. ( which puts the figures more in the $20,000 to $30,000 dollar range)sixth I am not sure how keeping 2 1/2 dogs is considered a loss.

Next I beleive more property and larger kennels and bigger Vans or Suvs where mentioned as well as a bigger house. Correct me if I am wrong but those are considered assets, Next if this is a business isnt any loss a tax right off, including vet bills?

I would like to point out that nobody has brought up the loss of a bitch or the loss of an entire litter or half the litter, which I am sure happens to everyone but if it happens often then what would that say about the breeder and the condition of the dogs?

Now if the cost of the pet insurance doesnt cover breedings then it would atleast cover the cost of the Bitch and the Stud and we have already heard how the cost of the Litter is Minimal.

Curious also how often breeders puppy swap to bring in outside lines?