Coat Color Genetics

[RivNewf]

I have a couple of related questions on inheritance of coat color:

If a black/Landseer recessive male is bred to a Landseer female, will all of the resulting black puppies necessarily be Landseer recessive? If not a certainty, is the presence of white on the chest or toes of those black pups a reliable indicator that they are Landseer recessive? If looking for a black/Landseer recessive puppy and the answer to the 2 questions above is "no", is it reasonable to use a DNA coat color test to find out?

Conversely, if a black dog has a brown or brown recessive ancestor, say 2 generations back, what is the likelihood that the black dog is NOT brown recessive? If said black dog is bred to a brown or known brown recessive dog and does not produce brown offspring, is that definitive evidence that the black dog is not brown recessive? If one wishes to avoid the brown gene, should a DNA test be done to be certain?

 

[Sun Valley]

If a dominate black is bred to a Landseer, ALL the puppies will be black, but they ALL will be Landseer recessive. The same will hold true with Browns. Remember black is dominate. When you are dealing with other color's a few generation back, some may still carry the recessive gene and will stay hidden unless bred to another dog carrying the same recessive color gene.

It's been my experience that that when dealing with Landseer recessives white on the back toes will indicate that dog will be recessive, but not always. I never went by white on the chest.

They do have a DNA test which will tell if your dog is carrying the brown and gray gene.

Lou Ann

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

I have a couple of related questions on inheritance of coat color:

...is the presence of white on the chest or toes of those black pups a reliable indicator that they are Landseer recessive?

If the white is covering the toes and not just the tip of the toes, and there is white on the chest and tail, then the pup could be an Irish Spotted. That is not the same as a Landseer and not the same gene.

 

[janices]

If the black male is landseer recessive to landseer female litter usually ends up being part landseer and part black. Dominant black male to landseer results in all black litter but they will be landseer recessive. Black landseer recessive to black landseer recessive is a roll the dice. The landseer recessive may or may not come down in the puppies who are black.

My black girl is from a landseer recessive to landseer recessive breeding. She has a white toe on back feet. There was one landseer in the litter. We're not sure if my girl really has the landseer recessive or not unless test breed to landseer to find out.

 

[RivNewf]

Dominant black male to landseer results in all black litter but they will be landseer recessive.

Will ALL of the pups be Landseer recessive?

We're not sure if my girl really has the landseer recessive or not unless test breed to landseer to find out.

Or unless you have her DNA tested.

 

[BluwaterNewfs]

I believe the DNA test only test for black or brown. There is second test for the dilute gene., which would give grey (dilute black) or creme (dilute brown). I do not believe there is a DNA test for landseer.

 

[janices]

I see new dna tests for the spotting gene out there but not the landseer recessive. That's one that has not been available in the past, dna testing for landseer recessive.

 

[RivNewf]

I see new dna tests for the spotting gene out there but not the landseer recessive. That's one that has not been available in the past, dna testing for landseer recessive.

http://www.healthgene.com/canine/colortest.asp?maincolor=black&breedid=42&Submit=submit

The description on the site above is a bit unclear but seems to indicate that testing for Landseer recessive is possible:

"DNA tests are now available for the full range of colors and markings in Newfoundlands. In Canada, brown Newfoundlands are not shown but they are in other countries such as the U.S. A DNA test is available to determine black dogs that carry brown.
In a few countries some Newfoundland dogs are grey. A DNA test to distinguish dogs that carry the common grey allele is also available Newfoundland dogs are either solid colored or have white spots. The spotted dogs are called Landseer, when they are black and white, after the painter who so often painted this type of Newfoundland. In several countries the only dogs with white spotting that can be shown are the black and white dogs. Dogs with white spots always have two sp alleles.
Although some dogs which are S/sp heterozygotes have white toes, not all such dogs have this. A small white chest spot is no indication of an sp allele. It occurs in many breeds."

 

[cedarvalleynewfoundlands]

As of a few months ago, the Landseer gene could not be DNA tested for. It is unclear, but still looks like all they can test for is Brown and Grey, since those are the only 2 that they specifically mention as far as a DNA test. To me, it looks like they go on to explain how you may be able to tell if a dog carries the Landseer gene, but it doesnt say they can test for it. Since it is unclear, you may want to call them just to verify. That would be great if they CAN test for Landseer now!
Also, even a test breeding to a Landseer wont tell you 100% if a black dog is Landseer recessive or not. It somewhat depends on litter size. With 4 or 5 pups, they can easily all be black, and yet the bitch can still be Landseer recessive. With a larger litter of say 8 pups, if they were all black I would cautiously assume she wasnt Landseer recessive. We just had a litter of 9 a while back, and only 1 was a Landseer.

 

[janices]

If you go out to the link and bring up black as main color it's only showing the brown, dilute, and white markings for the hidden colors. I don't see landseer listed.

 

[BluwaterNewfs]

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[RivNewf]

Here's my question to HealthGene regarding their Coat Color Test and the response I got from them:

Gordon,
First off thanks for the email.

The landseer pattern could be both black and white spots. You are right, you would see general landseer's as white Newfoundland with black variant. Landseers however can be black and white variant.
Yes we can determine if a black Newfoundland is Landseer Recessive by the genotype combination.

Hope this helps.

Sorry for the delay.

Allen Kharlip
Account Manager
HealthGene Corporation

Hello,

In looking over the description of your Coat and Nose Color Test #C128 it appears that you can determine if a black Newfoundland is Landseer recessive. Is that correct? What confuses me a bit is that the description states that you test for "white spotting" and refer to the Landseer pattern as black with white spots, which I believe is more appropriately termed Irish Spotted. Technically, as I understand it, the Landseer color pattern occurs on a white dog with black spotting, thus the AKC description of Landseers as white and black, rather than black and white. Can you please clarify if you can in fact determine if a black Newfoundland is Landseer recessive?

Thank you,
Gordon Watkins

 

[cedarvalleynewfoundlands]

The landseer pattern could be both black and white spots. You are right, you would see general landseer's as white Newfoundland with black variant. Landseers however can be black and white variant.
Yes we can determine if a black Newfoundland is Landseer Recessive by the genotype combination.

That is great if they can now DNA test for Landseer recessive,but I am still somewhat confused. Their web site refers to the "spotting gene" in Landseers, and the answer you got refers to black and white spots also, but the spotting gene isnt what produces a Landseer. The piebald gene is what a Landseer carries. The piebald gene places self color on a white coat, which I always thought was entirely different than spotting.
I thought the spotting gene is what produced an Irish Spotted, and the piebald gene is what produced a Landseer. Now I am thoroughly confused!!!!
I am even more confused since a friend very recently inquired about a DNA coat color test for Landseer and was told they could only test for brown and dilute in Newfs, although I dont know if it was the same company. Very interesting, as it will help out greatly if we could know for certain whether a dog carried for Landseer instead of relying on test breedings.

 

[Ohana Mom]

Curious if any of the breeders on here have done testing like this with a company? What an interesting concept

 

[DreamTime Newfs]

I have tested some of my crew to see if they are grey recessive.

 

[wrknnwf]

Never mind...