Clicker training

[Terrasage]

I went to a seminar last night on clicker training and it was absolutely fascinating. He made some very interesting points about why dogs pull and become aggressive when wearing leashes and collars. Check this out: PULLING YOU DOWN THE SIDEWALK IS NOT THE WORST THING

I am going to enroll William in his Click to Calm class!

 

[Terrasage]

Bump...
Looking for some feedback!

 

[Ivoryudx]

Well....I'm not so sure you'll like MY "feedback", but here it goes, because you asked.....

First dog training goes through trends. It used to be, force/beat the dog into doing what you want, then it was, NEVER correct a dog, then it went to a clicker fixed everything. More recent it kind of leveled out to utilize clicker type conditioning techiques with corrections when needed. The link you provided seems to be the latest 'trend', to not use anything around the neck, because it WILL cause aggression. Which is kind of a 'scare' tactic in my opinion, to get people to buy into their phylosophy. Its one of those statements that are 'kind of true', but not 'completely' true.

Here is what I mean.....

The statement, "Dogs are not born with the desire to pull on a leash." is incorrect. The amount of drive to pull, depends on the breed, but if that 'desire' was not there, we wouldn't have sled dogs. Yes, dogs can be taught to pull as in the example, but there are also other REASONS dogs pull. Its not just because puppies want to go exploring and we stopped them with a leash. That statement really does not give credit to the intelligence level and drive many canines are born with.

The detailed example of how a dog could interpret a handler pulling back on a leash, and yelling at it, COULD reinforce and COULD cause aggression in some dogs. But the reality is, most people are not that consistent, and not all dogs become aggressive when they are 'conditioned' like that. They are just not all programed that way, and to expect it, is wrong. Conditioning, is exactly what was described, and is used in different ways to GET a specific behavior, or to extinguish another. If that were the case it would be much easier to train a dog, because you could apply a cookie cutter technique for them all and it would work everywhere. We all know, or at least I hope we all know, that just because something works for one, does not mean it works for the next one.

The TOOL is not what fixes a pulling problem in the end. A halti, a choke collar, a pinch collar, a harness, or a Gentle Leader do not, by themselves, FIX a problem. It is the person on the end of the leash that fixes the problem, and gets the dog to understand what they want. The 'tools' just help make it easier on the person to get the dogs attention, so they can communicate with the dog what is expected. (I hope that made sense. FIRST you must get the dogs attention, SECOND you communicate what you want.) Some people/dogs do better with one tool or the other, it doesn't mean that all dogs and all people have to use the same equipment or techniques.

Now, with all that said, I am of the belief that I can learn something from just about any type of program. It may not be what they intended to teach me, or I may not use something in the same way they do, but I can usually find something to use from each training program I explore. I have even learned things that I have decided I would never use, but at least I got something out of it. Go to the class, utilize what you learn, keep in mind that there is always more than one way to achieve everything.

JMO,

 

[janices]

First dog training goes through trends. It used to be, force/beat the dog into doing what you want, then it was, NEVER correct a dog, then it went to a clicker fixed everything.

I think it's an incorrect assumption that full clicker (operant conditioning) does not use corrections cause we do use corrections but we don't correct as such as seen in traditional methods of obedience.

Trainers such as this make the assumption that they are dealing with novices so as such they go the extreme view to head off problems when using traditional methods incorrectly. Yes, that can cause a problem and depending on the dog you can have a problem.

My view only here, the clicker operant methods go across animals more uniformly than other methods and we're getting competition dogs out of breeds that weren't considered competition dogs in the past. Just like I know someone who is the only person to put both draft and team draft titles + multiple obedience titles + rally excellent titles on great pyrenees and this breed is not considered to be a breed to do this and I can name others who are doing this method who have high obedience titles, otch's, on non-traditional obedience breeds.

My girl Lana is considered to be shy, but yet I was able to conformation show her, put a water title on her, and a draft title on her before she got retired for health reasons. It is very easy for problem dogs as in timid and shy side to go aggressive unless the training is done correctly. We're basically getting results off a sector of the dogs that other types of training does not transition them well into competition. Your mileage may vary I guess depending on your knowledge but I figure if operant works well on zoo animals for fixing problems and training then theoretically it should work for canines as well. Most of the service animals are now clicker trained and I can think of a test that was done that was related to me where traditional service trained across a variety of methods and 1 clicker operant trained dog were put to the test in minimal amounts of time (30 min I think it was) to train complex tasks that were required for service work. The only dog that was able to train the tasks and do them correctly was the clicker dog.

[ 05-07-2006, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: janices ]

 

[Ivoryudx]

??? I don't think that is what I said.....oh well..

 

[bmilam]

I agree with you 100% Susan, I also think different dogs do better/worse with different training methods. We have a border collie mix that clicker training works wonderfully with ,he is very driven to please.
We have a young male newf who is very independent and very very bull-headed and not nearly as driven to please, who is somewhat food driven, but not in the sense that the border collie mix is. We have been working on his leash walking with a prong collar lately and it has worked wonders to get him to pay attention more. It wasn't necessary for the border collie mix, the only thing for him was to make him understand what we wanted.

Anyways, I think you have to look at the dog's personality, not all training methods work as well with all dogs. Just like with people sometimes it makes sense to use different tools/methods on different individuals.

[ 05-12-2006, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: Bava's Dad ]

 

[angie j]

I don't know ANYTHING about clickers, but I've always been curious about the tecnique. That link didn't give me enough information. I think I'll google, OR,... I could ask you guys....

I do know I've trained MANY doggies to heel without any of them being agressive..And ONE was a PULLER GALLORE!!! She loved me..but on a walk... that was HER time (in her opinion). She NEVER acquiesced that Her walk should be OUR walk
although she learned to submitt to the idea. (Poor girl... she would have loved 500 wild acres full of rabbits). LOL.
Angie

 

[Lola Bear]

This site
explains the principles and basics of clicker training pretty well

 

[AC]

Angus has gone through level 1 and level 2 obedience clicker training and I thought the experience was wonderful for myself and him. He is not completely food driven though so we did have problems in the beginning, sometimes I had to use his water dish as a reward! Overall I think it worked pretty good and I would do it again. Clicker training has cut down the leash pulling but has not eliminated it completely. Now if I used sardines on our daily walks he would stick to my side, but I would stink!!

 

[angie j]

Thanks Lola. That was a GREAT SITE. Pavlov dog, eh?!

The site seems to say, to me, PRIMARILY Positive Reinforcement. Sounds Great!

Also, times when aversives are absolutely necessary. Sounds ballanced.

I know nobody here would be mentally or physically abusive to their puppies. BUT, it is always a worry in this world.... with people and doggies...unfortunately

I'm still going to look further into it! I love trying out new training methods. Anybody else had any good experiences using the clicker?
Angie

 

[Lola Bear]

I've not clicker trained myself...I usually find myself juggling two dogs, poop bags, treats, fetch toys and various other paraphernalia so I'd need another pair of hands to manage a clicker as well

Clicker training has become extremely popular in the UK and, done correctly, it is an excellent method of training. It seems to be particularly effective among the 'working' breeds (and I mean dogs that do a job, rather than just those within the working classification) as it encourages them to think for themselves. I'd certainly like to give it a go myself with my next Newf

I'm still amazed at the number of people who think that smacking puppy on the nose for every wrong behaviour is the correct way to train...and then wonder why their dog behaves aggressively I always ask these type of people 'well, how would you react if I smacked you on the nose because I didn't like how you were behaving?'

 

[angie j]

I know what you mean with the 'smack him with a newspaper' mentality.....
My personal MOST annoying trait is when the owner continuse to say, come..come here...(louder) ...COME HERE!!....(screaching at the top of their lungs and chasing puppy (DOGGIE))...REX, COME HERE NOW!!!!
But they never seem to come to the conclusion that Rex should never have been off the leash if he won't come when called. AND, won't come this time if he didn't come countless other times before...sheesh.. people! LOL.
Angie

 

[Lola Bear]

Slightly off topic but one of the best pieces of advice I was given about house training was this.....

Get a newspaper and roll it up really tight. Keep it close to hand at all times and whenever your puppy pees on the floor, take the newspaper and hit YOURSELF over the head, whilst repeating 'I must pay closer attention to the puppy...'

[ 05-15-2006, 03:02 AM: Message edited by: Lola Bear ]

 

[Jeannie]

From my understanding the clicker is used as a quick positive reinfrocement to let the dog know he has done right. You click and treat but you can do the same with you quick "yes" then treat. Any quick positive reinforcement will do the same. Some prefer a clicker, I prefer a "yes". I can use the word "Yes" in the ring but I sure can't take a clicker with me.

Couple of examples. Judge says "are you ready" I say "Yes". Judge says "exercise finished" I say "Yes". So I have positive reinforcement throughout the test--obedience, draft, water, rally...whatever.