Cetyl M vs Joint Health

[FuzzyDustBunnies]

I've been checking out the Cetyl M and comparing between the one for horses vs. the one for dogs, and then comparing it to the Joint Health that I give now.

This is what I've found:
Cetyl M for horses comes in powder form. In 1 scoop there is:
2250 mg of Cetyl M
1500 mg glucosamine
1500 mg MSM
500 mg Vitamin C
It also contains alfalfa leaf, lecithin, Vit E, l-methionine
zonc sulfate
calcium monophosphate
copper sulfate
citrus biolflavonoids
selenium
apple and molasses flavoring

The dog version is in a chewable tablet. For 5 pills (dosage for a 125 pound dog) breaks down to this:
1250 mg cetyl M
1250 glucosamine
it also contains garlic root, bromelain, boswllin extract, giner root, yucca extract, roast beef & liver flavoring

The joint health (for 4 tablets) contains:
1000 mg glucosamine
1200 mg MSM
500 mg chondroitin
400 mg bioflavanoids
beef or pork liver 800 mg
carrot powder 600 mg
ascorbic acid 500 mg
hesperidin 200 mg
rutin 2120 mcg

I have a few questions and was hoping someone with more knowledge could help me out. Joint Health has chondroitin where the Cetyl M doesn't. If I were to go with Cetyl M, should I add chondroitin and what dosage should I give? By looking at the three of them, do you see any obvious pros and cons? TIA

 

[sarnewfie]

the only thing that would hold me back from the cetyl product is the calcium carbonate.
i would not give that to a young growing newf.
looks like a good product but my rule of thumb is chond with the gluc

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

I agree with Christine as the vit C would bother me too and that the chondroitin is important. I like the Sprintime products but they tend to be low dosage formulas so you have to give a lot. You really would need 8 pills for an adult newf.

 

[Leslie]

There is a growing body of evidence suggesting that the chondroitin molecules may be too large to be assimilated properly by many and may not be used at all (I will find the references when I have time to surf). There is also a push to check on the benefits of G and C as preventative. It will take quite a while before those results start coming out.

If you like the Joint Health, stick with it and try straight CM as an addition. Can't hurt.

 

[ardeagold]

There is a growing body of evidence suggesting that the chondroitin molecules may be too large to be assimilated properly by many and may not be used at all

Leslie, you're right. That's why Cosequin DS (animal formula) and Cosamin DS (human formula) is reportedly more effective than the majority of Glucosomine/Chrondroitin supplements. They've manipulated the molecular weight of the Chrondroitin so that it can be absorbed by the bloodstream.

 

[Leslie]

Well thanks for saving me the time there Donna, you're the best!

 

[sarnewfie]

i actually bought the springtime human GL and wow, what a great product.

 

[ornella]

I read articles on how vitamin C helps a lot in prevention of displasia, then I also have often witnessed how CM is much better assimilated than gluc/cho.
I use CM as prevention for my dog, 1 pill a day. I also know many breeders that give it to their dogs with fantastic results.

I found a link to an article that talks about the influence of vitamine C in dogs:
http://www.uspcak9.com/medical/vitaminc.shtml

And this article also on hip displasia:
http://www.belfield.com/article5.html

Ornella

 

[Rhoda]

Hi, this is my very first posting. I have l6 newfs, seven of them are ten years old. They were all on cosequin and when I found out about CM, I put them on that. I had four acls. I never had to do an operation. and one girl...who had two torn ones...we live wildly...went back into the ring and finished. I used CM at 3000 a day for three weeks on the acls. I have everyone on a daily dose now...the smaller ones get 2am and 2 pm ; the older, larger or more needy, get 3/3. They were on cosequin for years and yearas but I never had this kind of response. I was so pleased I forced my daughter to start selling it...she manufactures dog toys. Her malemute was not getting up at ten and a half. I got him on the CM and she got two and a half more active years out him. He had been on cosequin but it couldn't help any longer. Because of various publications I've read, I don't give Vit. C. as it can create rheumatoid arthritis, arthritis and DNA changes. I do add MSN to the CM. I don't seem to need the condrotin in the CM. Everyone is doing well. As a matter of fact, the old boy dragging the back foot, is now moving smoothely. I start my puppies pretty early..four months because CM is a preventative. What I know is this:" It changes the memory of the t-4 cells that create arthritis...so it stops progression as well. We hear one miracle after the other about this product. My daughter is Jill who owns Katie's Bumpers. I own Katey ..our VN and CH.Bumper her granddaughter. So we are very newfy oriented. Anything you want to know about CM and its use, I would be happy to share. You do need 3000 a day to start up. I have used one other brand but it was horribly expenisve and I had to use Cosequin with it as well. Anyway, after much reserach and forcing my daughter to sell it, I heartily reocmmend the one from Katie's Bumpers.

 

[FuzzyDustBunnies]

Welcome Rhoda! I just talked to Jill today and ordered some for Owen from her website. I am SO looking forward to trying this. If this helps Owen out, I will be screaming from the rooftops! I'll keep you all posted on the results we see.

(edited to fix the naughty typo I wrote! Thanks patty! LMAO!)

[ 07-21-2005, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: FuzzyDustBunnies ]

 

[amyk]

I've used Springtime for Eloise since she was a puppy and she seems fine. She was a little cracky as she was growing, but that seems to have stopped lately. I think she's about done growing now, so maybe that's why. That CM sounds pretty good though too.

Rhoda, my Eloise loves your daughter's bumpers! lol Her first one she's played with so much that it barely floats anymore! lol

 

[robandrobin]

Originally posted by Ardeagold:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> There is a growing body of evidence suggesting that the chondroitin molecules may be too large to be assimilated properly by many and may not be used at all

Leslie, you're right. That's why Cosequin DS (animal formula) and Cosamin DS (human formula) is reportedly more effective than the majority of Glucosomine/Chrondroitin supplements. They've manipulated the molecular weight of the Chrondroitin so that it can be absorbed by the bloodstream.</font>[/QUOTE]Thanks Donna and Leslie. I too had just been informed a few weeks ago that chondroitin is not suggested anymore. Glucosamine yes. This is for both human and animals. I had been trying to find recent papers on this but haven't had time.
RObin

 

[robandrobin]

Kelly, I can help break down some of this for explanation:
"also contains garlic root, bromelain, boswllin extract, giner root, yucca extract, roast beef & liver flavoring"

Garlic Root: Garlic is a root.

Actually a bulb and that is what is used. Anthelmentic, anticancer,anticholesterolaemic, antiplatelet. I could go on forever with garlic, but think in this circumstance it's being used as all around health benefets to the immune system.

Bromelain: Think Pineapple. Appears to be used for antiinflammatory effects and over all health.
http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/bromelain1-4.html

Boswellen: Used in some fibromayalgia protocols. Boswelia is an Ayurvedic plant. The compound Boswellen is found in Boswelia serrata (Sp?)http://www.herbmed.org/Herbs/Herb94.htm

Ginger root: Ginger does all different things, too numerous to list. It appears it is being used in this formula to enhance other compounds and for overall health and circulation. http://www.herbmed.org/Herbs/Herb94.htm

Yucca: Yucca is becoming a popular herb used as an antiinflammatory. This an herb containing saponins like alfalfa. Saponins are agents that foam. This does not mean the yucca saponins are going to foam in the dog. Saponins do get plenty of bad publicity, however, they have their place. Because the sapponins in Yucca contain cortisone like properties, it works well for over all structural health.

RObin

 

[Rhoda]

Re garlic. The Gazette published a news article that since garlic is in the onion family and onions are no, no, we should also avoid garlic. Hard to do as my dogs love it. But it was a study from some institution and clearly a scientific one at that. I doubt the amount in Joint Health is enough to do harm. If you think you want these enzymes, look up vitalzyme or neoprinol and get the real stuff in the correct amounts.The above are anti inflammatory and anti fibrotics,..as opposed to NSAIDS.

 

[Leslie]

Hey Rhoda and welcome aboard. I just want to let you know the garlic info. I have

From Brunestone, J. Parmacognosy, Phytochemistry and Medicinal Plants, 2nd ed., Lavoisier Publishing, 1999.

Onion toxicity is caused by the metabolite alkaloid n-propyl disulphide which inhibits normal enzyme activity in red blood cells and causes them to denature, producing Heinz body anemia. Garlic is metabolized to allyl propyl disulfide, which does not inhibit red blood cell enzyme activity unless consumed in massive quantities.

I give all my dogs garlic every day during the summer (even the little one) and their bloods have always been right on. My holistic vet recommends 1-1 1/2 cloves daily for the newfies and 1/4 to 1/2 for the kitties and Bucca.

[ 07-21-2005, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: Leslie ]

 

[Rhoda]

That seems like very good info about onions and garlic. You should write a note to Gazette. Unless the 99 report is not as up to date as the 05 report. I guess everything in moderation.

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

Hey Rhoda

nice to see you posting here! The Cetyl M sounds like a great product! I don't have anyone that needs it here, but it is good to know about. What is the link for those that may be interested in ordering it? Looking back at Kelly's original post, I assume you recommend the canine type without the vit C? My dogs get garlic and also love it, but I guess the quantity may be the issue here with that.
I find that interesting about the Chondroitin too, Robin. I wouild be interested in hearing more about that.

 

[robandrobin]

I understand the garlic concern. However, Garlic is not an onion even though they are in the same family.

The phytochemical compounds are not the same. Some are the same, but that doesn't mean the breakdown of the whole make-up is the same.

The amount of garlic that was given to animals to prove it's toxicity is unbelievable. You would have to be feeding your dog major amounts of garlic several times a day for at least two weeks to possibly cause toxicity. To conduct the test, they literally gave garlic extracts. Extracting is taking out major chemicals. Several times more powerful than anything we'd ever use.

This concern has come up on a variety of Newf lists. Each time a study came through, it was the same study. To prove, "Because garlic is in the same family as onion, then it is poisonous to dogs." Each time someone has come to the "garlic" rescue and pointed out the unimaginable amount of garlic used to prove this. A few Newfie owners on the lists savvy with measurements were able to state how much garlic was used to conduct the test. I can't remember exactly, but the amount was completely abusive. An amount most of our dogs would never have within a years time. All at once within two or less weeks. Ya, I'm sure there was a reaction. The reaction was a liver problem. Well, of course. The liver is a station to filter out toxins. What happens if you overload it. It can't keep up.

Poisoning of any herb can happen if abused. Really read over the studies carefully. Then decide.

Robin

 

[FuzzyDustBunnies]

Rhoda,
You wrote:"Because of various publications I've read, I don't give Vit. C. as it can create rheumatoid arthritis, arthritis and DNA changes." Can you elaborate more on this? I know many here give Vit C. I gave Owen Ester C from the time he came home (but have slacked the past year or so because he's on a bunch of stuff) and wonder if that could have contributed to his problems after reading what you wrote. In the articles you read, did it say anything about it causing degeneration at an increased rate?

This is becoming a really informative thread...thanks everyone for chiming in!

 

[IrishMist428]

Lynn, Jills site is

http://www.katiesbumpers.com/

You will see the Cetyl M on the right side of the page. I also ordered it for Akira after her injury.

I agree Kelly, informative thread. I also give Ester C