Are we going to get kicked out of the puppy kindergarten ?

[ekhalil]

Hello All,

Im a newbie owner of a newfie...He's 11 weeks old. We've had him for just over 3 weeks. He's lovable, sweet, playful, well for the most part he's a dream come true...He's also stubborn, hand\body\clothes nipping and dominant\aggressive towards other puppies - the latter, I was told by PetSmar trainer .

We decided to sign him up for puppy kindergarten classes two weeks ago. The first session was great. He was in heaven. He tried to initiate play, was curious, in general just so HAAAPY to be there. Yesterday, we attented session no 2. The trainer reduced the class members to 3 dogs only - apparently owners of smaller breed dogs voiced their concerns over size inequalities...whatever...So, here we are with a golden retriever and a lab - both extremely friendly and playful - just happy go lucky puppies. Abu, (that's my baby's name), was more of an outsider from the minute we walked into the enclosure. The other two puppies were playing together kinda ignoring him. Im not sure what was the cause, being ingored, maybe jealous or some unknown factor but Abu started to approached them with straight pointed tail and insisted on standing over them, he also groweled and tried to nip them...The owners of the other puppies were uncomfortable (my daughter and I both sensed they were nervous and worried). The grand finale was when practicing loose leash walking we walked onto the retriever head on and Abu got in a dominant stance growled and tried to byte golden retriever's ear .

Well, we were spoken to alright...We were told he's trying to be the alpha and we have a lot to work on in this regard...As we were leaving I over heard two other owners complaining about Abu...

Trainer's first suggestion was to eliminate the body, clothes nipping right away, second, to root out the stubborness (Abu has to think things over few times and needs a lot of insentives to come or go in a direction you want him to). We are certainly more than motivated to work on those and have been, we hate to get nipped on and he's getting really heavy to carry from one spot to another Im puzzeled though as to how is this going to make him less of a bully towards other puppies. Is there's something more I can do ? Next class is on Friday...

Concerned Mom

 

[Jeepin' Rob]

Sorry I don't have a specific answer but I thought those were the issues that were 'worked on' from kindergarten onward. They only dog I ever saw removed was one that was continually aggressive and out of control. Even then the recommendation was a private session of lessons to address the 'issues' and then back into group classes.

Rob & Moby

 

[ElvisTheNewf]

I'm sure you'll get great advice from several of the trainers on here.

I'm definitely not one of them, but wanted to encourage you to keep it up. It's great you recognize this as a problem and are willing to do whatever it takes to make Abu the happy, friendly newf he really is.

Don't worry too much about the other owners. You might want to look at it from their perspective. If one of their dogs was on the aggressive side and went after Abu, you'd speak to the trainer too. They also may not be familiar with the newf breed and nervous just by his size. You know YOU wouldn't let him hurt their dogs, but THEY don't know that. Does that make sense?

Good luck!

 

[janices]

My question is why the trainer allowed this to happen in the first place. Most classes I've been in are structured to not allow this to happen.

 

[Bucephalus]

He's still very very young at 11 weeks old. It seems that he may need some guidance from an adult dog who might be able to show him what appropriate behavior is, and what other dogs will tolerate and what they absolutely will not. Do you have any friends or family nearby with an older dog who could act as a stand-in mom or pop for Abu during playdates a few days a week? He might be picking on the other puppies in class just like he might pick on the other puppies in his litter, trying to figure out where he fits in. Your role, too, is to be the "adult dog," but sometimes I think they learn faster from another dog.

As for the nipping, that might be more difficult to curb. Our boy is still mouthy at 17 months. Teach him a trick so that he always goes and grabs a toy before playing with anyone. We stop all play if our Newfie doesn't have a ball or rope in his mouth, point to his toy and say "Go get it!", then resume play once his huge, gaping maw is occupied! Good luck!

 

[BLCOLE]

He's still very very young at 11 weeks old. It seems that he may need some guidance from an adult dog who might be able to show him what appropriate behavior is, and what other dogs will tolerate and what they absolutely will not. Do you have any friends or family nearby with an older dog who could act as a stand-in mom or pop for Abu during playdates a few days a week? He might be picking on the other puppies in class just like he might pick on the other puppies in his litter, trying to figure out where he fits in. Your role, too, is to be the "adult dog," but sometimes I think they learn faster from another dog.

As for the nipping, that might be more difficult to curb. Our boy is still mouthy at 17 months. Teach him a trick so that he always goes and grabs a toy before playing with anyone. We stop all play if our Newfie doesn't have a ball or rope in his mouth, point to his toy and say "Go get it!", then resume play once his huge, gaping maw is occupied! Good luck!

OHH! I LIKE the idea about the older dog. I would even volunteer MY dog if I knew where the OP lived. I have found that my Calze is VERY good at correcting bad puppy behavior. Maybe because she's been a mom.

OP: you live anywhere in Virginia? I would be willing to volunteer my dog...

 

[ekhalil]

Thank you all so much for your responses...It sure makes one feel better to have such a large body of support Im so glad I came across this forum...I have been cruising posts daily for the past two weeks.

Im not sure why the trainer did not intervene right away...maybe she was trying to see how far it will go before taking action...she did step in several times to prevent it from escalating further.

I dont know anyone with an older dog who could be a role model...my friends' dogs are not exactly "older friend materials"...
I live in Providence, RI and will be willing to drive long way to make new friends...does anyone live within a driving distance from me ?

 

[wrknnwf]

I think you should look for another kindergarten where they use positive reinforcement training. Check here: http://www.apdt.com/petowners/ts/default.aspx
Go and observe the class, and talk to the instructor first.

 

[marylouz]

OK- first off- your pup is a baby and really too young for alpha/dominance "issues". Secondly - PetsMart "trainers" get about 2 weeks of training on training dogs - and part of the training time is spent on how they are supposed to hustle customers to get them to attend the classes since that is part of their commission base. My first recommendation would be to find an experienced positive reinforcement based trainer- write the cost of the petsmart classes off as a loss and move on. For the mouthing issues - keep in mind that Newfs are very oral - they love to have things in their mouths AND puppies teeth so they need to chew on stuff - I would replace inappropriate objects with OK things and he will get the picture- you can also use Ian Dunbar's bite inhibition if he is biting hard on people.

 

[marylouz]

Here is the link for bite inhibition - http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/teaching-bite-inhibition Also- the first hint I had that this was not a great class is that pups are coming in to the beginning of the session and having off-leash -free play- that should always be at the end of the class, when pups are a little tired and been acclimated to the other puppies for 30 minutes or so.

 

[Henrys Mom]

I would suggest finding a different class to go to. He is only 11 weeks old! The trainer doesn't seem to know what she is doing. Find something fun for your new puppy and someone who will actually train him instead of criticize him. Best of luck!

 

[R Taft]

I agree with the others, go else where...

Also these might help, they are free downloads from Ian Dunbar


http://www.dogstardaily.com/free-downloads

Enjoy your puppy

 

[ajcooksey]

I agree with positive reinforcement training. We looked into petsmart but then KatieB on here told us about a training club that was in our area. You and your pup should feel comfortable in the atmosphere and it does not seem like a very welcoming environment for either of you. I also think its good to have dogs of different sizes there because socialization is also a crucial part of this stage. Willow became best friends with a yorkie in her class and it taught her how to interact with dogs much smaller than her. I hope you find a good class and are not discouraged by this bad experience. Also what worked for us with mouthing is to place a toy in their mouth anytime they tried to bite us and praising them for playing with the toy. They are 7 months now and every once in a while during play they will put our hand in their mouths but they never bite us. Enjoy every moment of him being small and you can never take enough pictures! And I love the name Abu

 

[hemingway]

agree with everyone above. i myself have a dominant boy...strong personality. but that is not a flaw...it is natural. all dogs have to fit somewhere on the totem pole of the dog world! they sort this out when in the company of other dogs. But sometimes they haven't learned proper social cues when so tiny....and Karen said it best- adult dogs are great role models for this! I remember when I was struggling with Hem's strong personality my fellow Newf Netters half-joked about "renting a bitch" to put him in his place. sometimes adult dogs are the BEST role models and can communicate doggy faux pas better than we can! but you have to choose carefully...Hemi hung out with an adult male pharoah hound who ran away from him. and again, with a bernese mtn dog female who was afraid of him...YES, they were afraid of a baby newfie, half their size!!! He was such a little punk! The other side of the spectrum are dogs who are too rough with the pup...as you already know, newfie pups have tender bones and joints...and Hemi was beat up a bit by a young male bernese and even though Hemi loved it, I stepped in because I knew it was too much for him. So find an even tempered, confident, adult dog who isn't too hyper! Throwing him "to the wolves" in a dog park is not a good idea.
training at home will always help. and, honestly, time helps too...as Hemingway has matured..he's become much better at reading other dogs' reactions to him. He still puts his head over dogs's shoulders when he meets them. He is a large, intact, male, nearing sexual maturity. It's natural dog behavior. I'm actually annoyed that the doggie day care people made such a big deal of it, almost ostracizing you, when they of all people should know dog behavior! Please don't lose sleep over it, one way or another. Get him in a puppy class when he is old enough, do some training at home, socialize him with some wise older dogs, and give it time!!! Best of luck.

 

[Ginny]

On a side note: what concerns me is that you're taking a pup who hasn't had it's full round of core vaccines, to a public place frequented by dogs. I wouldn't start group lessons up until your boy is about 16 wks. That's when the mother's immunity has likely worn off and the vaccines are effective. You obviously love him and would be distraught if he picked up parvo, distemper, or parainfluenza...

 

[ekhalil]

Ok, so I have found several training classes...thanks for the links !!! Ive compiled a list and will check it out in person first before I actually sign up (lesson learned). Ive also been watching Ian Dunbar youtube videos and searching for print materials - He is GREAT !!!

Also, local to me members of this forum have reached out to me offering to meet - BIG THANKS !!!

As to immunization - Im nervous now - I was told its ok to bring him into PetSmart classes cause all puppies need to have their vaccination certificates verified before being allowed into the class. The vet did not mention anything... I do realize ABU doesnt have his rabies shot but from what you are saying its too early anyways...

This is what he's got so far: Canine Distemper-Andenovirus Type 2- Parainfuenza - Parvovirus Vaccine at 5, 7 and 10 weeks. At 10 weeks he also got Coronavirus, Leptospirosis, Bordatella, Lyme disease. From what you have mentioned it is risky to have him with other dogs until the next round of shots ? ( 4th round) + rabies...or is it that Abu's vaccination schedule was way too hastie ? Please advise, I surely dont want to be doing something stupid !!! ...at the same time I do want to have a well socialized puppy - regardless, Im not in a rush to achieve either if it will jeapartize his health.

 

[wrknnwf]

This is JMHO; I know others may disagree...I would discuss the vaccination issue with the trainer. We let pups as young as 11 weeks in our classes if they have had their first vaccines. I think it's very important to get them in at the youngest age possible and that would be around 11 or 12 weeks old. Your pup has had several rounds already, so I think it's not that much of a risk in class. Yes, there is some, but at least you know the other dogs have had their shots. Outside of class I would still not let a pup sniff where strange dogs have been until all the shots have been given.

 

[ajcooksey]

The rules at our club were that puppy kindergarten started at 12 weeks and they had to have up to date shots and the class was at a time when no adult dogs were on the premises to protect the puppies from diseases.

 

[Brandie&Maggie]

Just wanted to say good luck with your boy! I hope you find a trainer that you like and who makes you feel more welcome. Look around until you find someone you are comfortable with and who understands newfs!

 

[NinaA]

I also agree with all above, including and especially, it is too early for him to be in classes. He should not be there until he has finished his core vaccinations. Remember, too, he is very much a baby - more so than other pups his age, and he will be for a long time. Your puppy is not as mature as the others in the class. He needs guidance. In fact, there are those who say (and my breeder is one) that puppies should never be removed from the mother until 12 weeks. My advice is to finish those shots (check with vet) and then go to a true professional trainer. No one would allow puppy activity to get to the level you have spoken of if they knew what they were doing. I know a lot of people like Petsmart, but I personally think this is an example of why not to go there. Come to think of it, my trainer would not put Moonlight in a puppy class at all. She made sure I was working with her at home, which I do from the day of arrival no matter the age, and we started right in on first level obedience at I think 16 weeks. Socialization was still part of the course. Good luck and welcome to the best place you could find.