All of a sudden she's growling and barking at us.

[soccerbabiesmama]

Raven (9 months old) has just been the sweetest, most darling puppy ever since we got her. I can't stress enough how darling she has been... until...

All of a sudden this week, she has begun barking and growling at us. A few days ago, it was just at our 9 year old, and just a mini growl. A stern "NO" made her stop and lay down. Then with our 10 year old girl she was barking and growling, but her tail was wagging so we figured perhaps she was just trying to get our daughter's attention to play. The went outside and played just fine. It wasn't a loud or particularly aggressive growl, it's hard to explain it. It was a low noise as if to get attention.

But yesterday, she was growling and barking at me in the kitchen, with her ears pushed forward, and in the downward facing dog position, no tail wag. Our sweet girl was pi@@ed off. It scared the living daylights out of me, because she is getting HUGE - and this it COMPLETELY out of the ordinary.

We do not rough house with her, we don't play tug games, the kids know not to pull on her or hurt her. They play a silly chase game around the chicken coop, tree and compost bin in the backyard and fetch - but no aggressive play.

This morning when she came in from being let out, she barked next to me while I was in bed, with her ears forward (making her look like she has a big stop) and then did downward facing dog again. When I told her "NO" and "DOWN" her normal words (attempting to be alpha female), she completely ignored me. She didn't stop until my husband came out of the bathroom with his thunderous voice and yelled "RAVEN DOWN". She laid down immediately, like she used to do with me.

Do they normally test the water with their owners in the teenage years? Is this something to be expected? Could it be that she isn't feeling well? I will be calling the vet on Monday also. She also starts obedience training next week.

 

[heather pluciennik]

Our puppy class did a alpha roll. To show her who the boss.
You roll her on her back. Get on top of her looking at her. Just hold the scruff of her neck lightly the whole time of 3 mins. Longer if needed. Don't let her get up unless she's not fussing. That's how alphas stay on top of the pack. Seems to have helped us show ours who's boss. You or you hubby can do it. I'd post a pic but don't have any of this. Sorry. Hope this helps.

 

[Garden_girl]

You said downward dog position?

Scroll down to the third pic- is that it?

Play bow

 

[soccerbabiesmama]

You said downward dog position?

Scroll down to the third pic- is that it?

Play bow

YES, YES, YES!!!! That's it! Is she trying to play while growling like she's gonna bite my face off? Because it really freaks us out - I was sick about it all night, because we just adore this girl.

But she also does the ears forward and raised with a fixed stare

I'm gonna buy a little Flip video and try and take a video today.

 

[sarnewfie]

Although we cannot really picture what went on, i would assume she is telling you something. If it is like the playbow Garden Girl showed, that is play. Newfoundlands vocalize in different ways. Never do the alpha roll. No matter what the obedience people show you in class. It is not effective. There are other much better ways to show them that you in charge.
Puppies will be puppies. If she is barking at you most likely she wants something. Maybe she wants to play. Puppies are very active, boistrous, and they do need training. But also they need to be understood. Make sure the class you are attending is taught by someone experienced. I generally recommend 4-H classes or the Local Kennel Club. The 4-H people will have teachers that do both AKC and 4-H competitions and therefore know much about behaviors.
Good books to read, "people,pooches and problems" written by one of the monks of new skete. There are other good books out there also.
Newfoundlands are thinking dogs, problem solvers. Maybe you can hide a treat outside and have her find it. First hide it with her watching and tell her to "find it" then hide it without her seeing it once she knows what find it means and she will go to work. IT is a fun game that makes her think and keeps her busy. Snow is fun to hide things in for them.
When you have issues many times it is best to have someone actually see what the issue is. Over the internet it is very hard for people to actually see what it is to be able to help properly.

 

[Elizabeth]

Our puppy class did a alpha roll. To show her who the boss.
You roll her on her back. Get on top of her looking at her. Just hold the scruff of her neck lightly the whole time of 3 mins. Longer if needed. Don't let her get up unless she's not fussing. That's how alphas stay on top of the pack. Seems to have helped us show ours who's boss. You or you hubby can do it. I'd post a pic but don't have any of this. Sorry. Hope this helps.

Please do NOT alpha roll this dog!!

E

 

[YorkvilleNewfie]

If it is a play bow, I would think that maybe she's not growling.

Now I'm not doubting what she was doing or what you're saying, but My Mila used to scare the crap out of us, because before we got her trained to not be obnoxiously excited around other people, we used to leash her and make her lay down around people as a way to hold her back from them and get her to calm down. Then she started "growling" and barking at the people while she was in the down position, but tail still wagging. We finally realized that, though it sounded just like a growl, it's actually a grumbling noise she makes when she's excited or frustrated. It sounds VERY much like a growl, but it's just one of her vocalizations. But try telling that to one of your neighbors that while it's happening! LOL! Now that she's good around people, we no longer have to do what we did before and she now only makes that noise very occasionally.

Until we figured it out though, we were very scared that she was becoming aggressive! Mila is a very quiet Newf. She very rarely barks, ever. In fact, I've taught her to "speak", but she hates doing it It's just a way for her to communicate frustration and excitement, without barking.

I would be hesitant to tell you for sure that's what it is, without seeing it myself, but it is a possibility.

Please keep us posted...

 

[Garden_girl]

Not that we know about this particular dog, but yes, growls can express a desire to play, especially when accompanied by a play bow. If she videos it, that would help. My own pup will offer a playbow and growl (usually happens if I ignore the playbow gesture ). If you look at in the context of the rest of the dog (posture), you can easily tell the difference in growls.


ETA: Soccerbabiesmama - you cannot always interpret what a dog is doing by tail wagging, some dogs that are very stressed will still wag their tails.

There is a DVD by Sarah Kalnajs that would help every dog owner understand what their dog is saying to them, it's not just for trainers.

The Language of Dogs

For a more comprehensive look at dogs for trainers, rescue & shelter evaluators, Sarah has another DVD - Am I Safe? The Art & Science of Canine Behavior Assessments

 

[suse]

Please do not use the alpha roll. As others have said, there are much better ways to show who is in charge. The alpha roll is dangerous for you and alpha dogs do not do that to show who is in charge.

 

[BoundlessNewfs]

Yes it IS quite normal for a "teenager" to test the limits. This doesn't sound like she's being aggressive, though, it sounds more like she's found a new way to demand playtime. I would like to see a video clip of it.

In either case, though, I don't allow my girls to "demand" things from me. Put her in working mode, to get her mind on following instructions. Go through some commands, or do the "find it" game, or other game that encourages her to be in more of a working mode. Once she's done that a while, then YOU can initiate some playtime.

Also, PLEASE do not do the alpha roll. This is not something you want to do, especially if you aren't familiar with it. Some dogs can get violent when this is done to them, and you can get seriously injured. Not saying your girl would do that, but you never know.

There are many people on here who are much more versed in behaviors and training than I am, and I'm sure if you can get a video clip, then they can chime in with more specific help for you.

 

[soccerbabiesmama]

This is all such wonderful information. Thank you so very much. I'm going through all of the recommended media now to try to make sense of it. I'm also looking for a 4H organization here in Moore (or nearby) that works with dogs. I will keep you all posted. So far she hasn't displayed the behavior since this morning. I think part of what makes it so unsettling is that she rarely barks, but this week, she has seemed to find her voice - and it's quite a big voice so we are caught off guard. It's very new. Our labs in the past were mouthy from the beginning - Raven is a whole different beast and often I feel like I've never owned a dog before!

Below I've posted a video of her play barking (which she only did on a rare occasion, so we videoed it to prove to family that she actually makes sound) with me in our living room (there is carpet there now, this is in between, when she had chewed up one and we had to purchase another). But the barking and growling is bigger now, and when I say "Momma's baby" she doesn't get affectionate, she just keeps on giving me the business.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxFzXUgPj8s

 

[Garden_girl]

Well, she got all of my dogs barking. What a playful, fun girl and it looks like at times, she didn't know what to make of your play! At around minute 1:21 or 1:22, stop the play - that is a definitive play bow!

Forever editing-ugh! I agree it's scary the first time you hear a Newf bark. I take my dogs into schools to teach bite prevention to second graders. You would think I could get one of them to bark, so the kids could hear it, just to let them know a bark doesn't mean they need to be afraid -the Newfs NEVER cooperate!

We also work with 4-H'ers, great group & great idea!

 

[Pipelineozzy]

I think she's talking to you.
I have a 9 month old "talker" too. She has an incredible vocal range. Mine is absolutely NOT being aggressive..she is simply trying to communicate. I ask her questions when she is doing it, and it's amazing to watch her face when I finally get the right question...(usually do you want a cookie?).

 

[SunnyD]

Rosie is a talker. It took me a while to figure it out but that is how she expresses herself. She barks and growls and wags & gets louder. She is trying to tell me something. Now that I know why she is barking, it doesn't scare me any longer.

 

[Garden_girl]

My girl Nellie is a growler and barker, too! I don't get it from my boys though- they back up and go woo! woo! woo! :lol:

 

[ArtfulCharm]

I agree with someone else who said she was being demanding. She sounds (from your description) like she is feeling pretty good about herself and being a demanding brat. Kind of like Varuca Salt, "I want an Oompa Loopa and I want it now!!" If that is the case, I wouldn't let her continue with this behavior without letting her know you don't like it, but I also wouldn't worry too much about her being aggressive.

Lots of Newfs like to talk. I think its pretty cute and funny, but you also don't want to let a big dog be a brat just because its cute. I think a video would definitely help is get a better idea of her intentions if you can get one.

 

[Jorge's mum]

no alpha roll!!! it does sound like play to me too hopefully you can get a video and we can see for ourselves and put your mind at rest

 

[ardeagold]

I agree. It's her trying to "talk" to you. And that's a play bow.

Some dogs are very vocal. They "purr", "gurgle", make mini growling noises, bark, woo woo, all kinds of things. Some of ours make a growly noise when they're content...like when we're petting them. Usually those noises are growly, with a "awr awr awr" then more growly noises, then maybe a bark...etc.

The standing still with ears forward shows she's intent on something. If it's followed by a play bow...she's targeted who she wants to play with. LOL

A warning growl with an aggressive pose is very different. Ears will go flat, hair on back of neck/shoulders will stand up, and the lip will go up, usually. That growl is menacing...deeper, more hostile, low and steady. No "chatter/talk" in between.

And, I'm in the NO Alpha Roll camp. That pup will be very much larger than she is now, and you could really put yourself in danger with a dog that size in fear for her life.

Remember, you don't need to be "Alpha" by being physically harsh to her. Being an Alpha to your dog is all about having the dog respect you enough to listen. You have to earn that respect, and rolling her won't do it....it could build fear, and a fearful dog often turns into a biting dog.

 

[soccerbabiesmama]

I agree. It's her trying to "talk" to you. And that's a play bow.

The standing still with ears forward shows she's intent on something. If it's followed by a play bow...she's targeted who she wants to play with. LOL

A warning growl with an aggressive pose is very different. Ears will go flat, hair on back of neck/shoulders will stand up, and the lip will go up, usually. That growl is menacing...deeper, more hostile, low and steady. No "chatter/talk" in between.

I can't thank you all enough for the great information. I just knew that if I put it out there that I would get great advice! She has been just wonderful today. Each time in the past when she used the growl, including this morning, she always did the play bow. She's never shown her teeth. We are feeling more comfortable that she is just really trying to get us to play and that her voice is getting much more loud. I've been reading and You-Tubeing away like crazy - and her postures have not been reflected in anything that looks aggressive, angry or fearful. The only time her ears are laid back are when she is submissive and getting her "lovies" as we call it. Typically, she's smiling her face off too. And no doubt, she's testing the water and pulling some teenager stuff this week. She has just this week started barking at the yappy dog next door also.

I'm ordering "The Language of Dogs" from Amazon, and she does start puppy obedience classes this week. We are choosing not to do the alpha roll, it doesn't seem like the right tool for our family. I'm also a little intimidated to try it, since I only have 20 lbs on this dog

Thanks again for all of the info!

 

[Pipelineozzy]

You might want to read this

http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/bouvier/Training/alpha-roll_no.htm