Vibrating Collar Experience?

[urneighbour]

Does anyone have any experience using a vibrating collar to reinforce recall training. I have a 2.5 year old male who knows the "come" command but is choosing to ignore the command sometimes when he is off leash and distracted, which is happening often.

We've resorted back to carrying treats with us when we let him off leash in the fenced in area of the park just to reward him for responding quickly. We started using the come command often just to practice, treat and praise instead of what we were doing in the past which was, for the most part, calling him when it was time to put the leash back on. He seems to really get caught up in all the sniffing, marking and excitement and it's taking several times calling him before he responds.

I thought a vibrating collar could act as my "long hand of the law" by adding a mild correction when he doesn't respond after the 1st come command and it might help "interrupt" his focus or interest in whatever has his attention long enough to realize that isn't what he should be doing right now!

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Please note I am referring to a "vibrating" collar not a shock collar.

 

[Alex]

I would go for an e-collar over a vibrating collar because as far as I know, there aren't any collars that offer variable levels of vibration. Depending on the amount of distractions, the vibration might not even be noticeable to him, or it might be so strong as to be scary. With an e-collar (a good quality one like a Dogtra), you have a very wide range of stimulation you can select so it's just enough to get his attention and nothing more. I think the e-collar would be much more appropriate for the mild correction you're hoping to achieve.

 

[urneighbour]

Thanks for your response. I'll check out the Dogstra e-collar. You also bring up an interesting point that in this situation, I certainly wouldn't want to spook him as the objective to to improve his recall not make him run away!!

 

[NessaM]

An e collar is a shock collar, if I'm not mistaken. I'd think pain would be much more frightening than a vibration.

 

[ArtfulCharm]

In my experience, Newfs don't react the same as other dogs to a shock collar. Ours all reacted differently but none of them got what was happening. Chloe thought there was something that got her wherever she was when she was zapped, so she wouldn't go near that spot again. Her brother thought something was biting his neck and would try to get it off him while he was still running off after another dog. And her sister would run right through it. the e collar works great for my catahoula because she gets that she's getting a correction for her behavior, but the Newfs don't seem to get it. You might want to try one that does both shock and vibration so you can see what works best for you. If you do try the e collar start very low and make sure its touching the skin. They get VERY upset and sad if it is too strong.

 

[sendchocolate]

Why would you want to use a shock collar for a newf? In what situation would it be needed?

 

[Alex]

Here are, IMO, some good articles on the use of an e-collar: http://loucastle.com/articles.htm
When used in this manner, you are NOT causing the dog pain.
I have been a die hard clicker trainer for several years and will be purchasing my first e-collar when we can afford it, for use in off-leash environments. My dogs have great recalls, but I always worry "what if this time they decide not to come?" With an e-collar and the training behind it, I have a plan B. I have spoken with a LOT of trainers, both trainers who only use e-collars, and clicker trainers who only use the e-collar for specific situations. The consensus is, it doesn't hurt, it doesn't scare the dog, and it gets the job done with minimal discomfort.
If the dog is frightened it is WAY too high, AND the dog is lacking in training to it. He should know exactly how to turn it off.
Here is a puppy working on e-collar in a similar method. Does she look at all frightened to you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmthLydS_d0
I asked for a video of a dog being trained with JUST the e-collar, no food. I thought the food could be artificially improving the puppy's attitude, kind of making up for the stim ("shock"), but that wasn't the case. That dog was just as happy as this puppy, and it was his first session. I can't share it because the trainer didn't make it public, so you can take my word for it or not. I'm good at reading dog body language, stress and appeasement signals, and so on, and I saw nothing that made me uncomfortable. I was VERY surprised, and that was the clincher for me.
I only suggested it because the OP was considering a vibrating collar which is, IMO, not very useful and unlikely to be very effective.
You cannot simply put the collar on, the "shock" him for not coming to you. That's what makes a dog fearful, confused, or sad. You also can't do any time of careful training with really anything other than a dogtra or maybe a tritronics because the jumps between the levels are way too big.
If you are interested in learning more, I found the people on ModernECollarTraining.com to be very helpful.
Do not use it on your dog until you try it on yourself first. That will take away any potential feelings of guilt you might have when you see it really doesn't hurt at low levels. Again, this is on a quality collar. Low levels on something like a PetSafe collar WILL hurt!!
This trainer has some good videos as well.
http://www.youtube.com/user/MIKELOESCHE
I realize I'm putting my head on the chopping block here, but if someone had said this to me years ago, I would have appreciated it rather than be under the misconception the e-collars and mean and painful and abusive. They sure CAN be, but not with this type of training.

 

[Alex]

I found a vibrating collar with variable levels of vibration.
http://www.unleashedtechnology.com/dog_training_collars/
Same concept, different terminology and *slightly* different sensation than an e-collar on low levels. You would do the same training with it. I'd like to see you be able to have your dog SAFELY off leash, which he is not right now since his recall is not reliable. Good luck!

 

[janices]

http://www.positivedogs.com/articles/fido_come_home.html

Put your dog on a long line and teach that come is a wonderful thing to do. If you've moved too fast in teaching come the dog hasn't generalized the command to the situation you're in.

What I find is mistakes are made in teaching come and the dog really hasn't generalized the command to the situation you're in. Easy to punish but I always ? have I really taught so the dog has generalized. If in doubt back up the training to where it works then bring back forward to generalize.

 

[urneighbour]

I am at a bit of a loss here. I think I would rather forget about off leash time than shock him. I don't know if he is more of a challenge because he hasn't been neutered. He is due to have surgery in the next month or so. We postponed it a couple months ago because he had chrystals and a UTI and his neutering is a bit more evasive since one testicle did not descend. I think it might be worth refraining from off leash time until after his surgery and recovery and hope that some of his poor recall is a result of all those rampant hormones wreacking havoc.

Anyway, eventually we will try again but I do believe he really does know the command "come"; sometimes when you call him to come you can actually see him start trotting away faster. How do you re-inforce to him that "come" is not merely a suggestion to respond at his leisure...How does his favorite treat as a reward and praise be more attractive than smelling around trees or visiting other dogs? I know I can't reprimand him for taking so long to come once he does come as it is counterproductive, so how do you reprimand him or let him know you are not happy (start calling "bad boy" out to him when he isn't responding?). My husband says just turn and walk away and he will soon follow!

 

[janices]

80% rule. If your dog can execute commands 80% of the time in an environment you're ready to move to the next level difficulty.

If working on generalization go to at least 2 different places a week and work on the training there. If can't get through what working on at the new places not ready to move to next level.

To achieve reliability of learned behaviors, the behaviors must become habits. It doesn't sound like you have a habit yet. Reliability is the result of repeating and reinforcing the trained behaviors.

I have a newf in some classes right now who's not reliable out at parks with high distractions. This newf can do at a lower level but not at the higher difficulty level. I sent them home with homework to at least hit 2 different locations a week and work on training. The more they're doing this the more the training they're working on is being generalized.

 

[sendchocolate]

Poppy is still not completely reliable in high-distraction situations (dog park) with come, but here is what I do. First I was taught when I was a kid that you stand still and say, "Come!" That's the way you do it. I tried that. She ignored it, big time.

I started reading, and watching videos: Ian Dunbar, Patricia McConnell, Pat Miller... and they suggested call, "Come, Puppy, come! Come on!" etc. in a really excited voice, and run the other way. The dog will naturally follow. For us, it does work most of the time. I just have be more interesting than whatever else there is. So, at the dog park it doesn't work. I do call her at the dog park, and when she comes, I praise her and scratch her ears, and then send her off to play. I NEVER call her when she is in trouble, and even if she was doing something "Wrong" I don't reprimand her if she comes to me. I don't ever want "Come" to be a negative thing. Now that we have been doing it for a while, I can stand still and call her excitedly and she will still come.

So that's what we are doing. Beyond that.. Ian Dunbar suggests teaching Distance commands, "Sit...Stay!" so that if the Come isn't reliable, at least the dog will stay until you get up to him. And in an emergency, you can teach your dog to down for safety.

DogStarDaily.com has some really great videos that will help with this. So this is what we are working on now.

 

[urneighbour]

Thank you for all the suggestions. We've decided to go back to practicing the command alot more in the house and yard and then re-introduce the command in more challenging situations with distractions, as suggested. I think a long lead for now might be in order so we can practice our imaginary off leash training. And, according to my husband, I need to work on MY tone as I don't sound very confident when I give him the command to come when he is off leash - how come if he sounds so confident when he calls the dog, the dog isn't responding to him until the 3rd or 4th call either!!!! LOL! Hopefully with a little time and alot of practice we will get it together and never get desperate enough to consider the e-collar again...hopefully.

 

[Garden_girl]

I don't know if this will help you, but maybe you can glean something from my experiences....I know your boy is 2.5.

As puppies, we taught our dogs come as a game, a fun, fun game. Hubby and I had yummy treats, and we placed ourselves about 12 feet away from each other, taking turns calling the dog-saying their name and then COME! What makes the dog SO determined to come is that one person holds (I think the hold further emphasizes the need to get to the other person) the dog while the other gives the command. The second the command is given, the person with the dog lets go of the dog or the leash (if that's how you're holding them). We trained on lead just in case they wanted to run off, but it was never an issue as the pup ALWAYS came and they came in a hurry! We laughed and praised, gave treats and made it exciting. Then we increased the distance playing the COME game.

In addition, when working one on one, I used a short lead first, then a long lead. We practiced 'come' on walks. On a short lead, walk a few steps forward with the dog and then start walking backwards, calling your dog to come to you. Make a huge deal out of it and treat every time he comes (you may have to tug on the lead at first). That means I often sound terribly silly, but it makes your dog excited to come to you. Next step we worked with a long lead-again, always making your dog come when you call.

I would constantly test the recall with distractions on a long lead to give me an idea if they will come when they are off lead (I can always make them come on lead when I call them). Off lead, if I know my dog won't come if I call under certain circumstances, I won't call her/him-rather I will go and get him/her. I don't want him to fail at this ...in other words, I don't want him/her to ever know it's optional to come when I call him. Persistence with training wins in the end, but nothing ever happens overnight . It probably took a good 18 months, from puppy on up to develop a reliable recall. It won't take you that long, as you aren't starting with a goofy pup.

We still play the come game (off lead) and our dogs still love it. Although now, we are a couple of hundred feet from each other so they get in some good exercise while playing the game.

Oh , I will add this, and I'll use my boy Tucker, as an example.
If Tucker is out in the backyard and I want him to come in, I need to say 'Tucker, COME! Those two words are his cue to come to me. If I yell -TUCKER - he will turn around and look at me because he was taught to look at me when I say his name, but he probably wouldn't come. If I just say COME, I get nothing. Point is decide on a cue word(s) and be consistent.

I think because we started teaching COME as a fun game, that notion of 'fun' stays with them - that hint of excitement when they hear ..DOG......COME, makes them want to come! I just gush over my dogs when they listen to me.

I don't see any reason why you couldn't re-start your training by making it a fun game first! Just try that simple game in your yard. Take turns with one person holding the dog, the other person calls and treats, then you hold the dog and the other person calls. I would probably play this game off lead in the backyard with an adult dog. Good luck!

 

[Alex]

I would constantly test the recall with distractions on a long lead to give me an idea if they will come when they are off lead (I can always make them come on lead when I call them).

And this is what the e-collar is for. Exactly the same purpose without the hassle of the long leash dragging around- it's not to cause the dog pain. The e-collar used in this manner is no more aversive than pulling the dog to you with a leash would be, although IMO a lot more convenient.

I did everything you guys are suggesting, extensively, and my dogs' recall is good, but I don't trust it enough to let them off leash at the places I wanted because I can't practice around every conceivable distraction. This is why I decided to try one, not because I was desperate, but because I saw something that could be better and the e-collar makes the most sense to me.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to use it if you don't want to, I really don't care. I just felt like you all had the impression I want her to shock her dog so it's screaming in pain if he doesn't come when called. That's not it at all.

 

[Garden_girl]

I just felt like you all had the impression I want her to shock her dog so it's screaming in pain if he doesn't come when called.

Nah, I didn't think that at all. But I do think most people associate the use of E-collars with punishment, so they have a negative connotation attached to them. Examples: Want to stop your dog from barking at the fence-use an e-collar, digging holes in the yard-use an e-collar, counter surfing - use an e-collar. I have friends that walk their labs in their woods, they use e-collars to stop them from eating deer poop. No one ever thinks of them in terms of just getting your dogs attention or a tool to teach good behaviors, they are frowned upon as a deterrent (aversive, as you say) when addressing an unwanted behavior.

I have one girl that does not have a 100% reliable recall. She has incredibly strong prey drive - if I should call her when she's hunting or giving chase to a rabbit or a squirrel, she would never come, even with an e-collar-she wouldn't come. That behavior/instinct has been reinforced dozens of times with the capture of rabbits and chipmunks over the years. She will probably never be 100% reliable for that reason, but I've never stopped working and training with her. My hope is..... one day, she will be in pursuit of a varmint, I will call her and she will turn around and come to me.

 

[urneighbour]

I certainly am not going to rule out ever using an e-collar to help with recall training but I think I need to re-do some of the basic "come" exercises we've done in the past first. If going back to the basics doesn't work, I think I would be open to working with an e-collar to acheive results as the other option would be to refrain from off leash exercise which would be a shame since my dog really enjoys this time.

 

[bears_dad]

And this is what the e-collar is for. Exactly the same purpose without the hassle of the long leash dragging around- it's not to cause the dog pain. The e-collar used in this manner is no more aversive than pulling the dog to you with a leash would be, although IMO a lot more convenient.

I agree. The other problem I had with the long leash is when they get a running start.......good luck holding on. In this situation the e-collar prevents injury to you and your newf's neck if you manage to hold on and stop him/her. I used a 70' climbing rope to give Bear plenty of rope to work with the recall and get exercise and it would hang and was not very susceptible to tangling. Good luck trying to stop a year old newf pup that starts out on your left and sees something on your right he absolutely needs to see or chase with a 140' space to run. I tied him off to the deck once because there is no way of holding onto the rope if he gets to much of a run. Well he reached the end of the rope with a good head of steam once........the long rope leash will never be attached to him again. The shock collar is far more humane method of control rather than stopping a running dog suddenly at the end of a long run.

The sharp corrections with a choke, prong or gentle leader can cause damage the dog’s neck and esophagus when used correctly or incorrectly. The responsible use of a shock collar can make a huge difference when facing a stubborn newf and in my opining is more humane than the latter. We had worked so much with Bear that he did know come, heal, sit, stay etc. and would do all inside with minimal distractions. I put the collar on him and with one correction at a very low setting his response to the commands changed at once. He was choosing to ignore the commands regardless of the reward. As long as I can see him, he can hear me and I can reach out with my remote and remind him to pay attention. With the collar on his recall is 100%. Most of the time he knows there is no choice. If he doesn't come when called he will get a reminder. He knows he has the collar on and does not chose to ignore.They are sensitive dogs which is why when using a shock collar only a low setting needs to be used.

The newfs neck has to much muscle and fat for the vibrating collar to be effective. It may work for you, but I like the security of knowing I can increase the shock level to a point that WILL get his attention in any situation. I said in another post regarding the dreaded shock collar that I would never use the high settings on the collar that I have. But if the choice was a shock that would make Bear yelp and cause a second of pain versus running under the tires of a vehicle I would choose the one yelp in a heartbeat.

Edit: I too am not trying to "convince" anyone to use a shock collar. I feel that most of the members on here believe people that choose to try the shock collar are inhumane pain inflicting monsters. Just trying to debunk some of the stigma this type of tool has gotten because of irresponsible people.

Good luck with your training!

 

[Garden_girl]

Urneighbour, I don't know if you subscribe to WDJ, but there will be an article in an upcoming issue called "Long Lines and Light Lines" - tools for training when your dog is not quite ready to go off-leash. If I read anything that might be new or useful to you in your training, I will let you know.

On another note, another upcoming article in WDJ is called "Auto-phobe" it features a car-phobic Newf that learns to love going for car rides. (And the same methods can be used to treat any canine phobia)...can't wait to read that one! :clown:

 

[urneighbour]

Thanks for the head-up on the articles...I will keep my eyes open for both of those articles.