Trainer dilemma...long post

[Odri]

I'm having a serious dilemma, and any input would be appreciated. Sorry this is so long.
We are currently looking at obedience school options for Ajax. My husband and I frequently meet a retired dog trainer in the park. She told us on one occasion that there was one obedience trainer we should avoid because she had seen this trainer "punch a puppy." (An 8 month old GSD).
Well, I heard that one of my professors, who is very devoted to her animals, had a wonderful experience with a dog trainer. So I chased her down to get the referral. She told me her trainer was fantastic! All positive reinforcement, no choke chains, differentiated between the temparents of the dogs in the class, this woman really educated her (the owner) and she has never had such a wonderful bond with her dog. Who is this wonderful trainer? Ms. Puppy Puncher.
I wasn't going to say a word about puppy punching, but she brought it up. The woman in the park must have seen the very class that my professor's dog was in.
As my professor told it, a macho man in the class had an eight month old German Shepherd that he had chosen because it was the most dominant. The instructor was working with a dog in the middle, and had told everyone to put their dogs in a sit around the ring, and if the dog would not obey the first command, to physically ease the dog into a sit. The GSD would not obey the sit, the owner went to ease the dog into it, and the dog turned on his owner and attacked him, quite viciously. The trainer spun out of the middle of the ring, "decked" (that was my professor's word) the dog, and then alpha-rolled him until he submitted. And told the owner that he needed to do that every time the dog behaved that way. They never came back.
The dog trainer did not physically discipline any other dog in the class...not by alpha rolls or anything, except this one dog.
I am very confused. Alpha rolls, yes, but I have never heard of punching as a legitimate way to deal with dog behavior problems.
At the same time, Ajax will *not* take a metal training collar (he freaks out, and then he cries), so I like the positive reinforcement that this trainer offers for him. And since he is not likely to turn on me (minor dominance scuffles don't get miles near that level) he is therefore not going to get punched.
Whether or not this is your style of training, does this sound legitimate to you? If I call this woman, knowing what I know, what should I ask her?
Audrey

 

[sarnewfie]

audrey in my humble opinion if that dog had aggression problems than it should not have been in your class, i do not and have never heard of puppy punching nor would i advocate it, but i want to say this.
i have dealt with agressive dogs, and sometimes the only way to curb that aggression is to "get tough"
many people are to soft hearted to understand that tuff means tuff.
i would drop that class like a rock and finda class in an all breed kennel club near your town.

 

[Annie Milliron]

If you have any doubts, then I would consider finding a training club, as SAR suggested. I find that whenever I have any doubts or negative feelings about someone/something, it's hard to get past that. It's important that you have faith in your instructor. If you don't, you're going to waste your time and money.

One thing you could do is to make arrangements to observe sessions at various training clubs. I would not recommend on the "in-store" type of training... but that's my own personal prejudice!

 

[Kodiak]

I agree with the others. In all the years that I've ever attended obedience classes with my furkids, I've never seen a trainer punch a dog. As a trainer, he should have been able to deal with the problem without punching! He should be able to read a dog and know the ones with possible behavioral problems in class. I would definitely cross that trainer off my list!

 

[robandrobin]

Wow. Puppy punching is a bit much for me to deal with. In fact, I'd probably leave on the spot even if it meant I didn't have another instructor.
I've had problems in the past seeing eye to eye with a trainer, but never due to violence. Just simple things that can be quietly resolved, difference of what a dog should do. (for example a disagreement about heeling on left or right, where left is the only side in my book, and with her it didn't matter YET. Later she said they could learn left. My opinion was my dog learned on the left, and so left it will stay.) But then, I was training Bryce as soon as we got him, and most of the other dogs in class had never even had a leash on. So, see that was a simple thing to resolve!
Viscious dogs were NOT allowed in class. They were given one on one lessons. Mainly the owner to learn how to gain control. BUT NEVER violent responses as it can provoke a dog or cause fear which can cause more problems down the road. Dogs know the diffference between a beating and an alpha roll.
I'm not experienced, but if you have any doubt whatsoever, and can choose a different instuctor, I personally would go elsewhere. Many others are probably just as good.
Robin

 

[Erin Marie]

I would go to a different trainer. I had a very fear aggressive chihuahua....laugh if you want but those little dogs can be mean!

We had a great trainer that never once had to smack him.....then again he weighed 10 pounds. I did volunteer at a vet clinic and was shocked when the techs routinely smacked dogs around. I stoped volunteering there and I don't take my dogs there.....

 

[berryann]

I think punching a puppy is pretty wacko. But even more important, the trainer flunked in another way - trainers are supposed to train owners how to train their dogs. She had an aggressive puppy and an owner who needed help, and she performed a dramatic correction in class, but embarrassed and maybe offended the owner. Instead of working with the pup, she scared his owner out of class.
I want a trainer that I can talk to, and learn why I should use certain techniques, and know that I can ask questions if I don't understand something.

 

[IrishMist428]

Hey I'm no expert thats why I attend classes but that is out of hand. A good trainer should be able to attack the behavior NOT the dog
I have never hit any of my dogs, never would, and certainly would NOT let anyone else.
Thats why classes are so important to verbally correct. I would go else where. My Vet is the one that recommended my trainer as he takes her classes. Maybe yours can advise you. Good Luck

 

[dogger]

""A good trainer should be able to attack the behavior NOT the dog"" VERY well said patty.
I am a very passive person until it comes to Animals. I would have punched the trainer... well, maybe not... but maybe. (Brian said he would be laying on the @@@@##* floor)
One thing I admire so much about animals is they have not lost the ability to trust their instict. If you are not cofortable with a situation, do what any of your pets would do ...
Flee.. humans have so much to learn

.

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[Odri]

Wow, you guys gave me a lot to think about. I don't like the idea of the punching, but quote from sarnewfie: "many people are to soft hearted to understand that tuff means tuff." I have never owned a very aggressive dog, nor has anyone close to me, but I do honestly believe that is true for very dominant aggressive dogs, and I might even be hard hearted enough to look away at some discomfort if that's what it took for the dog to be a family companion, I just don't know what the level for that is (not for my sweet souled pup, though).
All of your comments are very helpful. What threw me for a loop were 2 points...one from sarnewfie and Robin that that dog ought not to have been in the class in the first place, and the other from berryann that it sounded more dramatic than helpful. Those were two angles I had not considered at all.
I am still considering at least giving the trainer a call (though with all your responses I'm feeling much more negative about it), but I have a lot to think over before I do. I will also contact the all breed kennel club (there's one the town over) about their courses.
Audrey

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

I would never feel that hitting a dog is the right thing to do in a training class, or anywhere else, but I have to say that you may have to consider that this incident may have seemed different if you were there to see it happen. The dog was there apparantly because he obviously needed obedience training. And I have got to believe that the trainer's approach may have been a little over the top, but the attack to the owner, may have been severe enough that the trainer felt it necessary to protect the owner. I hope the owner went to another obedience class elsewhere since an 8 mo old pup should not attack it's owner for trying to get it to sit.
Considering, Audrey, you would be going with a newf pup and the likelihood of Ajax attacking you is remote, you may want to go to one or two classes and see for yourself. I always check things out for myself and then make a judgement, instead of making a decision on this incident that you did not actually see. He may be a great trainer for the more docile breeds.
But I do agree with the others that you do have to trust your gut feeling. One thing you can do too is to go to one of the classes, without Ajax, and just observe and meet the trainer, and talk to people that are enrolled in the class.

 

[sarnewfie]

actually newf york good points, but....
i must say this, the classes i have run and been assisting in, we watch the dogs closely, and any behavior of aggresion they are pulled aside and asked to please make a private lesson, put the dog away, and come back in to watch the class in progress, if it is put to the owner tactfully than all goes well.
i will not tolerate an aggresive dog in my classes, and i have watched a professional train viscious rotties and GSD and it is harsh.
it is the only way to correct a dog that is that far along and all of these older dogs, in their aggresion.
it is not beat the dog up or punch, but it is sometimes electric collars and pullups on leash as someone here in another thread i think described.
harsh.

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

I agree, sar, that the GSD had no place in a group lesson like that, but since you are more experienced with this, can a trainer pick out an aggressive dog before an incident like this. I guess my question is whether this was an unbredictable incident or whether the trainer knew he had an aggressive dog in the group.

 

[misamala00]

Again I'm late on the topic, but as I do have some (little, but still...) experience as working like an instructor I would like to coment.

I agree with NewfYork. Sometimes a dog does not look and behave agressive until something happens to provoke it. If something like that happened in my class, I would feel better if the instructor did something about it rather than let the owner deal with it. Of course a severe talk with the owner is needed afterwards.

As far as a punching goes - not something I would use, but you've only heard about it, so you don't know what really happened.

And another thing I wanted to say - no instructor can tuch your dog if you don't let him! It's important that you're aware of this.
Of course if you don't feel good in this club, you should go somwhere else. And I belive talking to your instructor about your concerness is a good thing to do too.

Mirjam & Misha

 

[Odri]

Thanks again, everyone. Just to clarify, Ajax is not in this class and has had no obedience classes. We have taught him, from books, all of the basic obedience commands. Now he just needs to learn that he has to execute them even if other dogs or people are around (i.e. potential best friends ).
As a couple of you mentioned, I don't know the details, and it's possible that this bad incident occured on the first day of class, before the trainer even knew which dogs were appropriate for a standard obedience course.
Anyway, I'm going to speak with her over the phone on Saturday, and I'll ask her lots of questions. If she won't answer, puts me off, or is a bully, then we won't go. Nevermind Ajax, I don't deal well with bullies myself. If I like how she talks, we'll tentatively check it out.
Thanks for all the thoughts and observations...I'm keeping both the skeptical and sympathetic in mind.
Audrey

[ 02-06-2003, 01:59 AM: Message edited by: Odri ]