SAR Update

[evergano]

Things are coming along so well. D'Artagnan loves the 'hide-and-seek' games and has progressed so rapidly. He can do a locate in 15 acres with no problem and is a natural on the recall. The state certification is 160 acres in four hours.

The big obstacle is obedience, with particular respect to reliable compliance. He is pretty pig headed and I had much better luck getting compliance with a halti/gentle leader. SAR does not allow chokes or halti's. I will discuss it with a trainer but clearly we are migrating from reward oriented only training to a little bit of negative feedback for non-compliance.

Any suggestions from the gang? Mostly come and sit. He is pretty good on wait and stay. I can't have him running off a cliff now can I?!

We try to keep training very positive, but he is the kind of dog that has a huge sense of humor about everything, even when you try to get very stern with him.

 

[sarnewfie]

ev
remember his age, he is being thrown a lot of stuff all at once.
what you need to do is get him focused on you, try different things, try some really to die for treats even if you have to cook them yourself, or try hotdogs in the microwave overcooked on papertowels.
try a favorite toy.
using that to focus his attention on YOU.
if he is not paying attention, he will not do well.
also remember this.
SAR is exciting, obedience is monotonous, so you need to make obedience exciting to, end a very short session of obedience with a puppy runaway.
that will be his reward, that will make him excitable hopefully, on the sit stay you need baby steps, you may find you are starting from square one often only becouse of his age right now and attention span, when i was in SAR i only did obedience for 10 minutes.
and always ended on a good note.
hope this helps and if not please let me know

 

[Ivoryudx]

I don't do SAR, so if this would go against any rules or ideas, then by all means, do not use it, but it may trigger other ideas that may work.

Just a thought....for the sit, have you ever tried pumping him up, and waiting for the correct behavior then rewarding him? This is kind of along the lines of puppy clicker training, and can be started in the kitchen or someplace without distraction, so he won't want to wonder off.

Get a treat out that he wants, preferably before you feed him, and stand with it in your hand in front of you, and don't say anything. Be sure he wants it, but don't let him have it until he sits, then give it to him, and praise like there is no tomorrow. You should start to notice he should get excited, and may twirl, bark, lay down, or whatever, but keep encouraging him until he give you the sit.....if he doesn't figure it out, then you can slowely, calmly show him after he offers some kind of behavior then give him the treat when he is sitting. You want him to be successful, and you want him to eventually figure it out on his own.

This is a really cool game to play with active dogs because you can "shape" any behavior they offer you, as well as unshape bad behaviors like spinning, pawing etc....

As far as the recall is concerned, put a long line (50 foot or so) and start out with the very opposit end in your hand with the main part on the ground and him wondering around at the other end. Call him, and if he doesn't come, bring him in, and don't stop until he is looking at you within arms reach without bending over. Then let him go, and do it again, until he comes everytime you call...this can be worked over a period of a few days. Then when he does that well, drop your end of the line on the ground, and work it the same way, but this time you can step on the line if he refuses to come, and then bring him in. Then add distractions, as well as someone literally walking off, talking with your dog while loosely guiding them by their collar. Just be sure and have them released before you call.

The theory is that dogs DO know when they are on line, but they can not tell how long that line is when it is laying on the ground. They get the general idea how far they can wonder from you on that line, but they should learn its their responsibility to always check back. What you want them to do is turn and return to you as a habit when called. So controling the situation for the dog to be successful is very important to create a habit.

Good Luck and keep up the training! Its wonderful to know your working and training for such a important, much needed job!

Thank You, for your work!
Susan

 

[evergano]

Thanks for the help and suggestions! We did do clicker training and he has very successfully completed basic and advanced obedience. He knows all the right moves. He is looking right at me, perfectly calm, no distractions...."D'Artagnan, SIT". He blinks....blinks again....sighs....starts to scratch and look around(this is where I would normal give a quick tug on the halti and he would plop his butt down with resignation). I could also easily 'lure' him into position...but he is basically just disobeying until he absolutely HAS to sit. I agree his youth may play a part. I have enormous patience which is why he is a spoiled rotten brat . LOL

 

[Ivoryudx]

hahaha....he IS a rotten boy, because it sounds like he thinks that he only has to sit once you pull up on the halti....he's waiting for you to give him the answers/que.

You wrote:
********
...."D'Artagnan, SIT". He blinks....blinks again....sighs....starts to scratch and look around(this is where I would normal give a quick tug on the halti and he would plop his butt down with resignation). I could also easily 'lure' him into position...but he is basically just disobeying until he absolutely HAS to sit.
********

This is where you need to stand your ground. Put him on leash, and don't allow him to walk off, or scratch. If he isn't interested in your treat, or offering you any other kind of behavior then you'll need to back up and reteach the sit command with a verbal, and the halti, then step back up to just the verbal alone. Its unclear if he is just uninterested, or if he is the type of dog who thinks not moving is the answer when he doesn't know. If he is uninterested, thats easy, just keep working on a variety of stimulus til you find the one that works. If he is not moving because thats his answer then you need to slowely be moving as you work, so he doesn't get stationary, until he sits.

You can also work this before he eats. Just stand with his food bowl in hand, and tell him "sit", once, and wait until he offers you something. You may have to have someone else walk up and literally lift his chin, and push him back into a sit, without saying anything to him for a few days until he gets the idea that he doesn't get to eat until he sits.

Just another note, be sure and tell him "good boy", "good sit", whenever you see him sitting, to help reinforce the good behavior.

Good Luck
Susan

 

[evergano]

Things are moving along! He had his first "official" in the wood runaways with the senior trainer. He did FANTASTIC! He didn't find him quickly because he was soooo excited, he repeatedly overshot, but boy was he worked UP! The excitement level is very promising and a good indicator of his future in this kind of work.

Our obedience is also moving in the right direction, though we have periodic head butting. If he thinks its fun, or there is something in it for him, yes he will do it. If he thinks I am just being bossy....he refuses...or maybe I am reading too much into that, lol.

My only apprehension is that one of the trainers uses 'rough housing' as a 'find' reward because he likes to do it so much and he is very motivated to 'find' for that kind of reward. I am working on tug-o-war instead, because the areas we are training in are frequently too dense for fetch. Kibble is ok too. He is already too mouthy and assertive. What say you of the rough-housing reward? He stops on command from the trainer, but not necessary with me. I can't have my dog eating me now can I?!

 

[alexmaddy]

Ev,

It's so exciting about D'artagnon. What a great ambassador for the breed he will be.

I don't have any suggestions better than the ones already made by ivorydux and SAR about tweaking his obedience. But I do have a comment about the roughhousing....

If you are uncomfortable with it -- stop it from happening. I know this is an "SAR Trainer" who prob. knows a ton about dogs. You want to "make the team" so to speak. No matter. Go with your gut. Ask the trainer kindly but firmly to stop rewarding your dog with roughhousing, and give him an alternative that works for you and D'artagnon. Just my opinion, but I know nothing of SAR work. After all - you are going to be the one in the field controlling your dog during a true SAR mission, NOT the trainer. YOU don't prefer roughhousing.

Please know that I'm not criticizing you or your trainer in any way, or SAR work. I just feel that from your post, you really don't like the roughhousing, and my intentions are to help you feel empowered to stop it.

Good luck. And once again - congratulations on the SAR work. I looked into it at one point for my own newfie, but she has a very low play drive, and is now a fabulous TDI dog, which fits her personality much better.

mj

 

[evergano]

Thanks for the feedback MJ and congrats on your dogs accomplishments. I do feel comfortable about setting limits, but I wonder if anyone is familiar with any research on how allowing rough housing affects a dog. Does it increase thier prey drive or aggression? Even if it is harmless I might not allow it simply for the fact that these dogs are large and can accidentally injure. The additional problem is three teenage boys and a fiancee who also enjoy wrestling with the dog. And on a final note, they are looking for a new public representative dog and I think he would be great at that (a lot of the search dogs don't much like to interact). I don't want him mouthing other people in that case.

 

[NewfMom]

I don't know if this will work for your situation, but Kimber loves to rough house with stuffed animals. She also adores tug of war. If Kimber is getting to wound up rough housing, I get the stuffed animal out instead and it gets "killed" while I tug on it's feet, etc. as a kind of "keep away". For us, this has been a good way to redirect the rough housing.

 

[Ivoryudx]

It kind of depends on the dog and the situation....If you have a dog who is truely agressive, then roughing him up just to be unruley will only increase his agression, BUT roughing him up and teaching him to settle immediately following, is a great control exercise.

Many trainers like this scenario and tend to exercise it with a lot of the working breeds, but you can also use it on dogs who get worried....if you can teach them to "let it loose" and play, then you can use it to your advantage when the dog is displaying nervousness. Sometimes physical rough housing is the only way to get them to respond, but it should be taught first, before its used in a critical situation.

I would discuss this behavior thoroughly with your trainer to learn his exact purpose of this type of release. It could be that he see's your dog as needing a big release to let go of the pressure of the training session. Sometimes we think we're giving them the release/praise they need, when in all reality we're not truely getting them to let it all out. If he is only doing it because he "always" does this, then discussing your feelings about it, and your knowledge of the breed, should help the two of you come to a mutual agreement.

Good Luck and keep up the great work!
Susan

 

[sarnewfie]

I agree with ivory!
also, what we did with emmett morgan and penny, we hyped them up, they were in a harness, we held the top of the harness as the person was running away we ENCOURAGED the barking and lunging to get to the person, this will be very very helpful down the road, this will work him into an enthusiastic worker!! be careful though, there were a few times emmett wanted to go so bad, he was young at the time, that he almost gave me a black eye and almost a broken nose!!! LOL
as long as the ruffing up is not hurting him, and i doubt they are, i dont see the harm in it, they are trying to get his drive up and sometimes once they do that, whatever button they need to find to get it out, it will be a most helpful thing to the both of you P.s. i have not seen evidance that it feeds into the family life at all. it is just working up the prey drive, and that for working.a newf is smart enough to know how ruff they can get with family members most times, if raised right.

[ 07-09-2003, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: sarnewfie ]

 

[evergano]

Super idea Ivory! And thanks for the feedback SAR! I feel much better knowing what you both had to say. I had never heard of it being used as a training technique per se, and was just worried about long term mental issues. D'Artagnan is neither nervous nor anxious, and the rough-housing is used exclusively as a reward in these training situations....you found the prey you get to play with it. I will work on teaching him to settle after he is done. I think he will respond to that with practice.

 

[robandrobin]

I just wanted to speak up and say how exciting it is to read your progress!!

Way to go and great job for both of you. Thank-you so much for sharing this.

Rob and I wanted to get involved with our Newf, but it's a no go right now, however, we will look forward to it in the future someday. And I think I will make time to volunteer to be found again! So much to learn, and it sounds so wonderful.

What a great service you and D'Artagnon will be giving to those who really need you!!

Robin

 

[janices]

Since I'm the clicker trainer, I always try to remember one basic rule, 'dog's are great discriminators but not great generalizers'. So, I have to question when someone says my dogs knows what they are supposed to do. Are you sure? Have you changed locations, are you doing something different, what has changed since dog was doing good and is not now. Usually you're doing something that's different. Which means I usually look at myself first, have I gone too fast for the dog, have I changed the location, is there something I'm doing that's different.

I have one girl which is what sent me this direction that if she gets punished, negative training, the more stubborn she appears to be, or the more she doesn't want to do something. If the training has been kept reward based for a considerable length of time, ie, that's what they know if you start adding negative punishment to get what you want, some dogs won't respond, and the more you do it the more they won't respond.

On that vain there is a SAR trainer that has been very successful with clicker based SAR trainining. If you want contact me and I'll give you the contact information. He had a group out for 911 that did very well.