Pinching with teeth!! OUCH!

[soccerbabiesmama]

Does anyone else have experience with this? Raven (now 9 months old) has targeted my 9 year old boy twice today. Once, he was just sitting next to her petting her and she "bit" his wrist. Just now, he was laying next to her petting her gently, watching Harry Potter, and she bit his shoulder. So far, she isn't opening her mouth and full on biting, she pinches with her front teeth, hard, bruising and lightly breaking the skin. We follow with stern a "NO" and my husband banishes her to the outside. But, I can't have a girl who bites if we just pet her... very heartbroken.

Again, we have a very strict "no rough play" rule. There's no tugging or pulling on her, no riding or ride attempts, no rolling her over, wrestling... the kids are very, very good to her. Raven has no reason to be afraid at all. :icon_redface:

 

[Lkorzen]

That is a scary situation and I am not an expert by any means but I have raised 3 newfs and have 1 14 weeks old so I have been around this block a few times. A nine month old is still a puppy who needs to be reminded of rules ALOT! Don't forget her teen years are right around the corners and she may be testing limits. Continue to be consistant with her. Raven might also see your son as a playmate, it could be as innocent as Raven asking to play. Again, she just needs to know in no uncertain terms that that is not acceptable.

Another thought is that both incidents happened when your son was patting her, is it possible that she has a sore or wound? Maybe she hurt herself somehow and when your son pats that spot she is reacting to pain...like I said I am no expert.

My girl, Koda was a biter for a couple months...I remember crying because I thought I had a monster on my hands. Everytime we would pat her she would bite, for Koda I think it was a phase and an easy way to soothe some hurting teethe. We stayed consistant and I am glad to say that Koda is a therapy dog. She is very gentle and would never put her teeth on skin ever. She goes to the nursing home and takes treats so gentle...I can't believe it is the same girl.

Good luck!

 

[rhoward]

From my experience, which is limited to 4 months, your puppy sees the 9 yr old as an equal or puppy. Sadie has done this too. She goes to the bathroom, where it is not fun. For Sadie outside would be fun so we try to make it as boring as possible for her so she knows it's not a good place to be. Sadie has gotten much better. Certain things to be cautious with are feeding time, small toys in the 9 yr olds hands and running. And of course, just when you think it's ok to pet a calm puppy they let you know to leave them alone. I think it's a puppy thing. I always tell my 7 yr old to leave Sadie alone when she is calm and relaxing. The others will chime in with good advice.

 

[twright1231]

Aw, sorry to hear. Boaz does this to me sometimes. He can be a real brat when he's not getting his way, or not getting the attention he wants, when he wants it. He only does this to me, never Mike. He's never broken skin, but pinches, mostly at my sleeves. I immediately correct, and he stops, but not without a huff. However, Boaz does not act this way when he's had adequate exercise. I think there is a connection with the behavior and exercise, not that I'm excusing it by any means. Boaz just seems more fidgety and less content when he hasn't been worn out. I have to be careful with him though because he is arthritic in both elbows. Hope you can get this controlled quickly.

 

[TerriW]

Pros will have to chip in here. I've had 3 Newfs. The first was quite a biter/nipper when he chased my kids. But that passed at an early age - maybe 6 mos?

My GUESS is that you or your son need to sharply and suddenly grab the dog by its scruff and growl/yell at it (GRRNNNOOOOOO!) like an adult dog would discipline it, maybe force her head to the ground and hold it there and REALLY give her grief. Let her back up and ignore for awhile.

That has worked on all my dogs. I don't know if it's right - but imagine, if you will, if this pup did it to a full grown dog? She'd get thrown to the ground and perhaps bitten soundly. She would not do it again.

Experts? Please chime in - I'm curious, too, if this is within the bounds of normal for 9 mos.

 

[Annetteb]

Kona did the same thing trying to play or get my attention and it did hurt like a pinch. I believe it was about the same age. I had to work with her so she know that wasn't acceptable and she has since learned and grown out of it. Though sometimes when I get home from work she gets mouthy... gently holding my hand with her mouth bringing me in the house.

 

[Kay]

I don't know if this is helpful or not, but our girl still gets bitey now and then. Granted she's 5 months old, not 9. When this happens we redirect her to something that she CAN chew on and leave her alone. All petting stops. My husband reminded me just today that we went through a similar phase with our lab, who is as gentle as he can be as an adult. She may just not know what's appropriate yet.

 

[DAWNMERIE]

I certainly don"t miss that stage, but I taught Zeke it hurt, every time he did it I'd pretend to cry. He understood it pretty fast.

 

[ardeagold]

Mira did this when she wanted my attention. Usually she nipped my butt. It's not "biting" in that sense...it's attention getting behavior.

Is she bugging your son to pay full attention to her before she does it, or is she just strolling up and nipping for attention? I'm not sure what to do about this. Perhaps some trainers/behaviorists will chime in.

Mira did get over it...and now nudges my butt instead. Frankie does that too.

Chance, if he wants attention, will take my arm in his mouth...no pressure tho...to let me know it's time to pet him.

 

[sendchocolate]

not an expert, but I would NOT force her to the ground. The couple of times Poppy did this ( in the crotch!) She immediately was given a time outin the crate after being told NO! She was deprived of th thing she loves most, our company. She learned quickly. Just follow through and give her a chew toy in the crate?

 

[4ondafloor]

I think I'd classify this as a nip for attention. It's definitely not a bite. That doesn't mean it hurts any less though. Those little nips can actually leave bruises that are painful to touch!
When the nip happens I would have your son immediately stand up and go "eh-eh-" and give the strong but not yelling command " NO BITE" and then redirect to a toy.
Giving them something else that they CAN bite and chew is a more postive thing to do that alpha rolling. IMO an alpha roll should never be used to dominate a dog. Others will disagree and that's ok but my two cents worth of advice would be to:
1 acknowledge the behavior
2 identify it as inappropriate fo the dog
3 redirect
Good luck to you. I think you'll find if you're consistent then you pup will catch on very quickly. Let us know how it goes.

 

[smy0527]

Both times you said that your son was sitting/laying next to her and petting her. Could this be her way of saying "enough"? Not appropriate, but I don't want you to think that wanting attention means "play with me" when it might mean, "I've had enough, leave me alone." Again, not condoning because the action is not appropriate.

 

[Garden_girl]

It's not too late to teach your puppy- bite inhibition. It's something you need to train, just like potty training. She also needs to learn that her family decides when it's time to play - not her. Instead, I feel the need to focus on the biting part, forgive me.

When Raven was a little pup and would bite her littermates, the littermates would yelp to let the puppy know she was playing too rough, they would also quit playing with her.

She won't learn that it's a bad thing to bite humans if you don't correct the behavior, even when it's just play. Putting your mouth on a human is never ok.

Sit down with your pup, and a chew toy and engage her in play activity. The goal here is to get her to grab onto your hands, body parts, etc., at her will. I don't offer my hand to try and get the pup to bite it, that would create a mixed, confusing message/she needs to associate the biting with play/prey behavior (later, when you put your hand out to grab her in an emergency-she may just back off, because she was taught to fear the hand). Praise her when she is playing/biting the toy. The second she grabs you, give out a loud, stern - no bite!!!, fold your arms and look away from her-the play stops here (not loud enough to scare her, just loud enough to let her know you mean business). If she continues the play - get up and move away. Let a brief amount of time go by and engage her in play again, repeat the exercise and repeat it daily.

I suspect she was trying to get your son to play with her and viewed the petting as an invitation. Your son has to tell her (loud stern) NO BITE as well, but he must move away from her immediately. I don't advocate having him work with her, teaching bite inhibition, you must do it.

I had a similar experience last week at my Monday night puppy class with my own pup. We had a new pup there, but Moby was more interested in the pup's owner. He tried to engage her in play and grabbed her arm, (he was on lead, btw) she let out a small noise when he grabbed her. My puppy, thought this 'noise' was play behavior, grabbed her again. It wasn't until he heard the familiar 'NO BITE' that he understood - oh - I can't bite her, either? Everything I teach him at home has to be cross-trained to mean -it's not just me you can't do that to, it is EVERY human.


Seems like every human/dog behavior (like jumping up and puppy biting) - I have to teach him twice - once, not to do it to me and once, not to do it to others. That's ok, he gets it really fast the second time I have to teach it.

I hope this is making some sense, as I am so freakin' tired, lol!

 

[rhoward]

not an expert, but I would NOT force her to the ground. The couple of times Poppy did this ( in the crotch!) She immediately was given a time outin the crate after being told NO! She was deprived of th thing she loves most, our company. She learned quickly. Just follow through and give her a chew toy in the crate?

Hey Tina, I have heard mixed reviews on using the crate for timeout. One of my first books on puppies suggested this but then I read many other articles that said to use an isolated place such as laundry room or bathroom. I wonder how many use the crate. Here is why I am curious: Each time I have to put Sadie in the bathroom I have to remove rugs and toilet paper. It's not a daily event but still. Thoughts?

 

[twright1231]

I think you want the crate to be associated with a pleasant place to be. That helps when it's time for bed, when you are leaving the house, etc., and you need them to go in there and be settled with it. They also need to associate the crate as a safe place, where they can go if there's too much excitement and they want to get away. We don't use a crate, but if we did I don't think I would use it for correcting behavior. One thing I've learned on NN is to focus on the good, quickly correct the bad.

 

[BoundlessNewfs]

I have to ask...what was her body language like each time? Was she relaxed and just reached over and "nibbled" on him? Our dogs "groom" each other by little nibbly bites, and it's when they're both relaxed and happy. If this is the case, she might think she was being affectionate. Having him tell her "ah-ah" and walk away might be enough to let her know he doesn't like that kind of affection. She IS still young, and learning.

If, on the other hand, your pup tensed up, grumbled a warning, or just quickly nipped at him, I would take that to be something altogether different, and totally unacceptable. This will require adult intervention, and possibly one of our NNer's who are well versed in behavior and training could give you some suggestions. If the pup IS doing this, I don't think it's a good idea to leave her alone with your son until you've sorted this out.

soccerbabiesmama...Do you have any friends with newfs, who live nearby? They could possibly mentor you on a few of these puppy issues. Sometimes, just having another newf owner who can let you know what's normal or not, and how to work with newfs, can be advantageous. Newfs use their mouths when doing newfie things, like water-rescue, etc. They may be more likely to mouth people's hands/arms. Knowing that, and keeping that in mind, when teaching them when it might be appropriate and when it isn't, can help guide you in how you train. Having another newfie owner, who has been through that already, can be a big help.

 

[soccerbabiesmama]

Wow such great advice so far! Thanks for all of the input, it's been very helpful

I am going to start working with her like Garden Girl suggested today (the repetition and "No..." is exactly how we got her to leave our chickens alone).

Both times that Raven nipped the boy, it was in a completely relaxed atmosphere - incredibly calm as a matter of fact. The petting was just a little boy, sitting next to his girl - which is usually just the sweetest. Raven takes to my son more than she takes to my daughter... she takes to my husband WAY more than she takes to me . Her body language was totally docile. There was no precursor to the action that would have led him to believe that she was done.

There are no other newf owners in close proximity that I know of. There used to be a breeder (Cokti Nokona or similar) that was about 20 minutes away, that I was hoping to mentor us - but it seems they have dropped off the radar. The training programs here are mostly for hunting, Petsmart or they use shock collars (which we won't do), but we are pursuing a venue at the rec. of our vet.

Her body language is what made us realize that she isn't growling at us, but trying to get us to play (she just did it to me with a stick). Thanks for those tips. Her body language with these nips is calm no showing teeth, no growling... just nip and done x 2. Her ears are fine, no sore spots or wounds. I think possibly she was weirdly trying to groom him, or she was being a little testy and wanted him to be done with the petting (normally, she just get's up and walks away.)

I will post today how she does with the work Thanks again for all of the feedback!

 

[TerriW]

BTW- I also have used a puppy yelp in response to a nip. You know, respond with a startled YIIIPE! I think they respect that, and it may help too.

 

[soccerbabiesmama]

I will try the puppy yelp too - see what she responds with. The kids will just LOVE mommy using a puppy yelp! LOL!!!

Her timeouts from now on will be in our laundry room, she's not a fan of it there. She loves the bathroom (which always means tub time) and outside... so we won't banish her there anymore (hand on forehead... what were we thinking! She probably thought it was a reward for nipping!).

 

[sendchocolate]

Hey Tina, I have heard mixed reviews on using the crate for timeout. One of my first books on puppies suggested this but then I read many other articles that said to use an isolated place such as laundry room or bathroom. I wonder how many use the crate. Here is why I am curious: Each time I have to put Sadie in the bathroom I have to remove rugs and toilet paper. It's not a daily event but still. Thoughts?

Ron, Poppy goes into her crate, on her own, multiple times a day. If she had an aversion to her crate, I wouldn't use it as a time out. But she doesn't. In my house, if my kids are acting in a way that is unkind towards one another, they get an invitation to their room, until such time they can settle down. I say, "Antisocial behavior means you don't get to be around people." As soon as the attitude changes, the kids can come out. It isn't a "punishment" as much as a change of scenery and a chance to think it over. This is the way I approach it with Poppy. I often leave the crate unlatched, but if she thinks I am still mad at her, she will just stay in it. She considers it a safe place. She doesn't sleep in it at night, but she goes in when we leave the house, and for bones and such. Hope that clears things up.