Dog Fight -- HELP

[Jeannie]

Panda has been very bad lately. A few night ago Gary was sitting on the floor with Panda on one side and Sam on the other side petting both of them. Sam got up, walked away then as she walked back Panda started growling at her and lunged at her very aggressively. Sam was so afraid that she sit behind the chair hiding from Panda. I finally got her to get into the chair, but she would not go near Panda for quite a long time.

Then tonight I gave each newf a bone. Sara being her normal self did not want hers so I put it away. Sam munched hers right away and Panda let her's lay by her paws. Panda then got up and went to visit Gary who was petting Sara. AS Gary was petting Panda she started growling and Gary thought she was growling at Sara but NO!! Panda jumped over the coffee table and attacked Sam (we think because Sam picked up the bone Panda had left. We really don't know if Sam had the bone or not.) We had to jump between Panda and Sam. Now Sam was not reacting back to Panda, but Panda was going crazy, growling and going after Sam. After we got Panda away from Sam I put her in a down, scolded her and made her stay down as we checked Sam for bites. (Luckily with Sam's heavy coat there were no bites.) I took away the bone and they are ok. Any ideas on how to avoid this in the future? This was the 2nd time in 4 days that Panda went after Sam both times out of jealously.

With Panda's personality change I have been thinking over Panda's actions these last few days. Nothing is out of the ordinary. She is eating very well, playing outside with Sam and other dogs as normal. She has always been closer to humans then other dogs. Then I thought that Panda was trying to keep Sam from Gary, but Panda is my velco newf and really does not want to be with Gary except at night when he is sitting on the couch. Panda will go to him to be petted, but that is about the only time she willingly goes to Gary for anything (except oreos) Help !!

 

[sarnewfie]

it sounds to me like there is some alpha things going on, that panda is staking out territory that will soon be very limited for sam, i hope i have the correct newf.
i would definatly put a firm foot down, and if you can you must stay ever so vigilant on the body language, and sometimes it happens so fast, in the blink of an eye.
i would definatly buy the books from the monks of new skete.
i would not however do an alpha roll on a newf, it is unaffective and is negative, it does however work for rotties most of the time.
you need to show panda that she is NOT alpha but YOU are, and even though you think you are these things may help.
does she sit stay before eating? does she do a sit wait until you are thru the door first?
does she get out of the vehicle before you?
she should always be put on a sit/wait command and you do everything first.
you might have to let sarah out by herself or with the other newf and keep the two seperate for a while.
When you walk thru the doorway or where she is laying do you step over her? if so, make her move out of your way, bump her with your foot and give a command move or something to that effect, it shows she must respect you.
is sam the omega?
are the roles amongst them changing?
all things to consider, maybe someone is not feeling well.

[ 12-26-2002, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: sarnewfie ]

 

[Jeannie]

SAR,
Panda as all my newfs sees me as alpha. I made sure of that long ago. All my newfs sit before eating or getting a treat. I can even take a treat or food away as they eat--right out of their mouths. They wait to go out side after me. They wait for water and I stand letting each one drink in a different order. (except Sara who I always let go first eating and drinking, going outside, getting in the van--Sara gets special treatment because of her age) Panda is really a laid back newf, except for these two times and it is toward Sam.

When we first got Panda she and Sam did squabble over the alpha role. I believe Panda won that position, but that was 1 1/2 years ago. Sam is not brave enough to challenge Panda for the alpha role. I just wonder if it has something to do with her starting to get attached to Gary. As I stated just recently she has decided Gary was a ok. The person that had her before--her new husband was mean to Panda. When we first got Panda she would not have anything to do with Gary, but now that is changing.

I don't think she is not feeling well. Like I said, she is acting and eating normally.

 

[Maggiesmom]

Jeanie,
I was just reading your posts and one thing I thought of that you said in the last post is "cuz of Sams age you do give her some special treatments, such as being 1st at some things" maybe Panda is realizing that Sam is getting older and cant/wont defend her spot on being 1st for these things and thinks she can be 1st by dominating Sam. What shes not realizing is its YOU that is deciding Sam gets 1st (and not Sam) so by dominating Sam shes still not going to get 1st shes just scaring Sam and pissing you off. I dont know how to stop it other than keep letting Sam 1st and reprimanding Panda when she dominates, but that was the 1st thing I thought of reading that post.
Hope my response made some sense. and Good Luck!!

 

[AmyPC]

No, it's Sara that's getting older, not Sam. If I remember right, Sam is the baby of the group, then Panda and then Sara.

Maybe you're right about the Gary thing Jeannie. I dunno, I had two dogs in the same house for a few years but now Newfies, and there were no problems. Can't offer any help whatsoever! Poor Sam though! (You know she is my favourite and I've never even met her! )

 

[sarnewfie]

Ooops karen
i do not recommend alpha rolloevers in adults, but in pups it is a very good tool if done correct.
i have seen to many adults react the opposite and negativly compared to adult rotties.
Somewhere the alpha role in jeanies situation is being challenged/changed meaning sam not being allowed to show gary affection just as the omega sometimes is not allowed to eat in a wolf pack.
if i were jeanie the alpha gets everything before the others.
we had a situation with the rottie here and emmett.
the rott was stubborn and would not accept emmetts role, so he would gradually do little things to test emmetts patience.
emmett took so much than finally staked out territory in the house till the rott couldnt move without emmett being on him letting him know.
We had to get tuff with both the boys.
and to this day they are fine but....
the dang rott still will stick his nose in emmetts way or when emmett gets a treat, the rott is forceful and overprotective, thinks that he is king, when he has been told many times in a diplomatic way he is not.
i have to say that something needs to be changed.
this could get worse.
i hope it doesnt, in our case we were told to get a wiffle bat, it has holes in it, so it makes a weird noise when you swing it thru the air, and if the rott got out of line we were to swing it at him and even hit him, not hard, but this was a corrective training that told us this, well it did only take twice and the boys were fine, sometimes it takes drastic measures, and i can hear the fallout and critisism coming for the wiffle bat, *ducking* but it worked.
jeanie stated
"When we first got Panda she and Sam did squabble over the alpha role. I believe Panda won that position, but that was 1 1/2 years ago. Sam is not brave enough to challenge Panda for the alpha role. I just wonder if it has something to do with her starting to get attached to Gary. As I stated just recently she has decided Gary was a ok. The person that had her before--her new husband was mean to Panda. When we first got Panda she would not have anything to do with Gary, but now that is changing"
i would have to guess that panda is staking her territory, (gary) and is not allowing the omega near him, remember in a wolf pack the omega is always picked on but also plays the role of jokester.
you are going to have to come down on panda swift and stern, sam may be the one not feeling well and panda may sense it? who knows, but if i were you i would make sure panda knows that (gary) is to be shared,

LOL just kidding.
i dont know if this helps or not, i certainly would not use the wiffle bat unless you are instructed and mainly that was for the boneheaded rott not the newf in our household.
the two would start eyeballing each other and that is where i put an end to it, and after sitting and watching it was always the dang rott who started the eyeballing.

[ 12-27-2002, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: sarnewfie ]

 

[Jeannie]

It is Sara that is getting older not Sam. Sara is 11 1/2, Panda is 8 and Sam is the baby at 5.

I too agree that the alpha roll is a good training tool for dogs of all ages. When I first got Sam the alpha roll was the only thing that she understood. It worked and I recommend it highly.

I don't think the bat idea would work for Panda. She is not afraid of anything. Nothing intimidates her at all. My guess is that she would just ignore it as she does all loud noises.

I will keep you posted if anything else happens. Hard to believe that right now Sam and Panda are sharing the same bed, both rolled into one little ball. (Or should I say huge ball) So cute

 

[Summer]

Jeannie,

Sounds like you already understand what's going on and why. Also, everyone has good points and suggestions. The only thing I might add, would be that even though it is understood by all that you and Gary are alpha, you still get to decide that their behavior is not acceptable in your presents. What method you choose is up to you. They can and will learn this.

However, those are your rules and you can only enforce them when your present. Your dogs will go along with it because those are your conditions. They will however, still work it out their way when you are not present. Because of this, I see two options. 1) Let them work it out WHEN you are not there. They still do not have this options in your presents. or 2) Keep them separated when you can not observe them which will keep harmony in front of you, but they will not have the opportunity to work this out amongst each other.

I realize you are very familiar with dog pecking orders so I won't elaborate. My point is, you can make any rules you want, but they are only good as long as you are there to enforce them. And they will work it out when you are not policing them.

 

[brendapiepiorka]

Jerry finally had to alpha roll maggie. She was always picking on him. He never did any repromanding of her or any real obedience training like I did so she thought she was the boss of him. She would knock him down with her nose, head butt him all the time. She would even grab him hard with her teeth and play way to rough. I told ,he had to stop letting her do that. It may have been cute when she was little but now that she weighs 100 pounds, it's not so funny anymore. He finally had enough one day and rolled her. He looked like a raving maniac and Maggie got up and just went to her bed and looked at him. Ever since, she hasn't beat him up anymore .
Brenda

 

[brendapiepiorka]

ps.
Jerry's my hubby

 

[mollysmom]

We've been having some "bossy" problems here again too. Molly is the alpha b. here and when the others forget that, things get a little ugly. She thinks she has the rights to left over food in bowls, to being the first to get a biscuit from our neighbor and has had a couple of run-ins with our other newfs lately. I agree with whoever said that you need to impress upon the alpha what is acceptable and what is not in your presence. These guys are no Golden Retrievers!! (I think this is about the 5th time I've said this now haha)

 

[brady]

Brady has been quite the bad boy lately as well. He has been so good, but the last few days he has to be the one. He loves to play, on his terms. Lot of growling going on, not mean, but sounds like more than puppy play. I have thrown more stuff at him from the deck. Last night I threw a snowman head at him, it is a toy which sings "we wish you a Merry Christmas". Well the toy song got stuck, every time we opened the slider we heard the song. Poor Brady didn't know what to do with it.

[ 12-30-2002, 11:37 PM: Message edited by: brady ]

 

[Laura_Loomis]

Stuck!!!

Stuck how? On? On the fence? That is so funny. I bet he was at his wits end. And when you are talking about playing, do you mean with you or another dog?

Laura (still

)

 

[brady]

The song just kept playing and playing.... He was playing with another dog either his little brother Tim who is 5 months old or his friend Kodiak who is also a newf at almost 2. Poor Brady whenever I think of him holding that snowman head playing the song, the look on Brady's face was priceless....