Disciplining puppies...

[AmyPC]

My 9 and a half week old Newfie puppy Rory has been charging at us, growling and then biting - hard. She is constantly play-biting as well, but we expected this. This other biting is much more aggressive and actually leaves marks and welts, which sometimes bleed a little.

When she acts this way, we have been yelling 'NO', clapping loudly in front of her face and pushing her away. None of this is effectively deterring her - she seems to get angrier and keeps 'attacking'.

She was the first born in a litter of nine and we feel this is her way of asserting herself in the new household - a late teen, two early adults and two older adults. We understand she wants to establish a position in the house, however she is causing some damage in the meanwhile! Any suggestions? It has been a long 14 years since our last puppy.

 

[GAD]

This must absolutley not be permited. Play biting or biting of any kind should be completely forbidden IMO. Also you say "she gets angrier". Is she really angry? Pushing her around my provoke this. Ever watch mutiple dogs together? The Alpha pushes the others around, and the alpha doesn't take well to being pushed.

As for yelling no and pushing her away I'd say you're half way there. First give her something else to bite - when she does praise her. If this doesn't work and she keeps attacking then you must escalate your plan.

I think An alpha roll may be in order here - this dog MUST be told who's boss NOW before it gets any bigger.

Also no rough play at all. I know how much fun it can be, but the dog must learn that rough play is forbidden with people. Be consistant! Whatever you decide, you must never waver.

If you feel you're losing control, I'd suggest getting a professional to help you. An unruly puppy is sort of cute, the unruly 160 pound dog she may become is a danger.

There are others more experienced than I here - I hope they chime in.

GAD

 

[Vicki]

Good Advice, Gad

Any rough housing should be done via an inanimate object like a pully rope, tug toy or some such chewy thing. Never let your little one bite you or anyone else, take it from me, it is very hard to "unlearn" that behavior.
Vicki

 

[AmyPC]

Thank you for your replies, both of you.

We have also been thinking that she is trying to establish the alpha role and we KNOW we really need to prevent this. She is almost scary now, at 10 kilos - she'd be terrifying at 50 kilos.

We will be taking her to puppy school as soon as she has cover from her shots. (Waiting for the day! It should also burn up some energy).

Just before, she did one of her 'attacks' on my boyfriend, who was sitting on the couch. Yelling NO definitely provoked her and pushing her down made her try harder. In the end I picked her up and put her in one of the bedrooms with the door closed and left her there alone for 5 minutes. When we let her back out, we patted her and she was much more subued. There has been no biting since then. She is now asleep actually.

Is this an appropriate way to deal with it for now?

 

[Vicki]

Amy
It worked, nobody got hurt. Sounds like a reasonable response. Serendipity strikes again!
Vicki

 

[GAD]

We used this technique with Cozy for a while and it worked.

I agree - if it works and no one gets hurt you're OK. Don't leave the dog in there for too long. Ostresizing (sp?) is a serious ordeal for a dog, so this should be reserved for serious offenses (as biting is).

Good Job!

-GAD-

 

[Lynne]

Amy, have you talked to the breeder about this behavior? She might have some suggestions and be close enough to come over and help you out.
A time-out in her crate might be a little safer than putting her in a room, alone, where she could get into all kinds of trouble on her own.
I've seen the mother dog take the pup's muzzle in her mouth when they get wild. That, or even a scruff shake, might help, too, as discipline for your wild one. But if this IS truly a pup trying to become Alpha, I'd get some knowledgeable local help right away, someone who can see her act this way to truly interpret her actions. If the breeder isn't close enough to help, ask your vet for a recommendation.
Lynne

 

[GAD]

Listen to Lynn - she is wise in the ways of Newfdom!

-GAD-

 

[AmyPC]

Thank you all for your replies!

So far today, we have had no frenzied biting attacks from Rory and I'm pretty sure the 'time out' we gave her yesterday has a lot to do with it.

(She also seems to be working out what 'NO' means).

I definitely don't want to do 'time-out' regularly, for 'minor' naughty acts or anything like that - I'm planning to reserve it purely for the biting / growling attacks. And only short periods of time would be necessary with Rory - she revels in the company of others and isn't a huge fan of being alone.

If the behaviour continues, I'll definitely speak to the breeder about it, but I'm feeling a bit more confident now that she's starting to get the message that biting / growling isn't acceptable. And we WILL be going to puppy classes as soon as she's old enough - I think the whole family is planning on trooping along!

On all other accounts, she has been a perfect (cheeky) angel.

Thanks again for all your advise. I'm sure I'll come knocking again!

 

[Lynne]

Thanks for the kind comment, GAD.
Glad Rory's starting to respond, Amy. It's important that you don't let her get away with that kind of thing! How is she with food? I suggest people (adults only!) fool with the dog while it's eating, put their hand in the bowl, take the bowl up and give it back. I do that with my baby puppies (We have 2 4 1/2 week old girls right now) and suggest the owners continue doing it so the pup knows their people can take ANYTHING they want. It came in handy when a friend's toddler wandered over and confiscated one of the dog's bowl and fed them one piece of kibble at a time. It also helped when old Belinda kept getting twigs caught between her teeth. I can reach down any of my dogs' throats and take whatever I want. Give Rory a bone or biscuit, then take it back. Tell her what a good girl she is if she allows you to do it, then give it back to her. If she grumbles, she loses it, and you try again later. It's an important lesson!
Lynne

 

[AmyPC]

Have been doing the food thing Lynne, but she doesn't have a problem with that. She just looks at you - no growling or snarling or anything.

She has been better, but still gets very 'angry' when being told off, or pushed away. We have been using the scruff shake you suggested at times - not too hard or anything, just so she gets the message and I think it is helping a little.

Sometimes though, she will back away when you yell NO and push her, and then growl and lunge forward, biting at legs and arms. She keeps coming and coming. She actually made me bleed a little today. That is when I had to do a scruff shake, which stopped her. She then turns remorseful, lowering her head and is very quiet for a little while, with no biting or mouthing when you go to touch her.
However, she is definitely getting better than she was. And as I said before, as soon as her shots are done, we will be off to puppy school like a rocket.

 

[Lynne]

Glad she's getting better, Amy. She may read your pushing her as a game. A firm, deep-voiced "NO" might work better than a yell. If she's already improving and you're going to puppy class, I think you'll solve this one. The bleeding could just be scratches from those blasted needle teeth. My almost 5 wk old babies mouth my hand and scratch it, too, but they're learning. With the baby pups, I yipe at them to let them know it HURTS and they back right off and come back to lick me. I think going to puppy class, where a trainer can watch her in action, is the best thing. If she doesn't pull the stunt there, you might want to get the trainer to come to the house once or twice and set her up, if you can.
Some Newfs are "talkers" and hand-holders. I know of one who was going to be put down as a vicious dog by people who weren't reading him right. My Gussie was a hand-holder and she HURT! I actually bit her on the nose to teach her to hold my hand softly. Sounds weird, but it worked with her. She'd still take my hand in her mouth, but she did it nicely.
Lynne

 

[AmyPC]

Hehehehe Lynne, I was actually thinking about giving Rory a bite myself but then thought I must have been having a breakdown or something for even considering it

I'm so glad to hear someone else has actually done it!

If I can bring myself to, I may just bring myself to try it.

It is those needle sharp teeth - I look like a self mutilator! And I live in Australia and it is Summer here so no hiding with long sleeves.

And I love the idea of 'hand holding' but am a teeny bit scared to let her do this while she is in this biting stage because I don't want her to get confused with what we are and aren't allowing.

And you're right about the deep, low NO instead of the yell. And making strange squeaking noises or hissing noises have been stopping her in her tracks too.

I have been finding your advice really helpful. Thanks!

[This message has been edited by AmyPC (edited 12-18-2000).]

 

[GAD]

We don't allow our girls to ever have human flesh in their mouths. I taught Cozy this by sticking my fingers down her throat every time she put her teeth on me. It cured her in no time.

To this day you cannot put your hand in her mouth (she was a nipper when little). The downside is it's very hard to brush her teeth .

Luckily she chews her Kong so much that it's not an issue.

The one thing I would not tolerate in my girls was mouthing in any way. I figure if Cozy (160#) even lovingly put a neighbor's kids hand in her mouth I'd be in for a lawsuit. I felt it was just better this way.

Now Cozy will kiss you until the cows come home, but she will never even let you put your fingers in her mouth. If she want your attention she nudges you with her nose, which at my height can be a bit, shall we say, unpleasent.

-GAD-

 

[Lynne]

Good one, GAD!! Gussie only ever did that to me, though, so I didn't worry. An excellent way of curing a dog of biting at the brush is to LET THEM, as long as you turn it so the pins hit their tongue. You're not correcting the pup. The Boogie Dog is biting them.

And, Amy, you're on the right track with the noise. I'm doing that with my 5 wk old baby pups, right now. When they chomp on me, I yipe at them, making the same noise they make when they're hurt. Of course, my adult Newfs have a hissy fit when they hear Mama (or anyone else!) yiping! That's one of the reasons it's so important for pups to be with their dam and littermates until at least 8 weeks. They learn from each other what hurts, and Mama jumps in and disciplines the stubborn ones. I love to watch the interaction! I really like Carol Benjamin's book Mother Knows Best. She uses the dam's methods of teaching her pups to train the dogs.
Lynne

 

[AmyPC]

GAD, thank you so much for that tip with putting fingers in throats.

It will be invaluable and has been quite effective so far.

 

[GAD]

I'm so glad I could help!

Be careful though - It got to be second nature to me - Cozy would nip, and I'd shove my fingers down her throat making her gag.

Then one day we're at my Brother-in-law's house and his Golden pup nips me, whereas I naturally stick my fingers down his throat without a second thought. My wife pull me aside and says "How would you like it if my brother came over and stuck his fingers down Cozy's throat?". Whoops!

I guess the moral of the story is "Only stick your fingers down your own dog's throat".

Hey I never claimed to be Dickens.

-GAD-

 

[Lynne]

Hey, if it helped me learn how to break a bad habit and didn't hurt the pup, I don't really see a problem. But you MIGHT want to ask if they'd like to learn a neat training trick!

 

[GAD]

AmyPC:

So how are we doing? Any better?

GAD

 

[AmyPC]

Mmmmmm, well, Rory is better thanks GAD, but I'm starting to think it's just me and her having the power struggle. I live at home (I'm 21) with both my parents, my sister and my boyfriend and at first she was nutso with all of us but gradually has been getting better with everyone else...except me.

Well, I shouldn't say she's not getting better - she is - but often she will still go me and won't let up even after sticking my fingers down the throat and pushing her away, making yelping noises, yelling, walking away...all that stuff.

And she's getting a bit cluey with the hand down the throat thing and is now going for feet! It's Summer here and everyone is in bare feet or open toed shoes and I think she knows it would be pretty hard to shove your foot down her mouth!

I wouldn't say I'm not firm with her either. I would say I'm as firm as the next person. If not firmer. I'm just going to perservere and I think we will get there. I think maybe she is gradually being overcome one by one by the rest of the household and I'm going to be last.

After she does the 'attack', I end up thinking, "Rory hates me! Why does she hate me, of all people? She was meant to bond closest TO ME!!! I was the one who wanted her THE MOST!!! I love her THE BEST!!!" (Maybe I don't but I feel like I do

)

We'll get there, I'm sure. All your advise has helped though...when I think back to a few weeks ago, when it was hard to even pat her without being nipped and grabbed - I can see we've come a long way already.

(By the way - Merry Christmas, for all you who celebrate it!)