Atticus update

scout

New member
Atticus had checkup on Wednesday. Good news! His heart murmer is barely detectable now. Of course, we'll be monitoring him closely still, but we're breathing a little easier here. Also, he's gained two more pounds. Isn't this a little fast even for a newf? 6 lbs in two weeks. The vet told us not to increase his food yet even though he inhales every meal and barks for food every time we walk by the bowl.

BTW picture fiends, I'm working on it. Atticus doesn't exactly pose for me, and I'm not quick enough yet. Everything either comes out too dark, or he's a black fuzzy blur.
 

luvxl k 9

New member
Just out of curiosity what kind of food is Aticus on? 6 pounds in 2 weeks isn't out of line, I've learned from NN that they usually figure an average growth at 10 pounds per month. You wouldn't want him growing any faster though as the slower the growth, the better it is for their hips and other joints. Also you should make sure he is getting some glycosomine/chondroitin supplements for his joints. And yes we still want those pictures!!! ;)
 

scout

New member
Thanks to all!

Nope, I haven't contacted the breeder yet. Don't get me wrong, I will, but in the last email, they seemed to feel a little defensive, and at this point, I'm just miffed enough to let them sweat for a couple of days. I'm not miffed at them about the heart murmer (I know that's a little beyond their control) but about the cystinuria testing, or lack thereof. They could have just said they didn't do it, but they didn't do it and justified it with a line of bull. Don't worry, I'll contact them this week.

Atticus is eating a mix of Diamond and Science diet kibble. 2 cups a day, four meals a day, as prescribed. The vet told us to start switching him over to Science Diet. He has big dogs too, and says he likes Science Diet better. The Diamond brand was the breeder's choice. THe vet said Diamond brand had unreliable results in terms of growth and health of the dog. I supplement with carrots and broccoli (for special snacks) and occasionally chicken. I haven't started him on any other supplements though. I asked the vet about glycosomine and he said it would be okay, but it acts as an anti-inflammatory, not necessarily a joint builder. He also explained that just as people get vitamins in forms that the body doesn't find usable, some dog supplements act the same.

Any advice to the contrary? Please keep in mind that I have three kids and I teach, i.e. Woman on the move, and I don't always have time to cook for the humans in this house, let alone for the animals. Also, teacher = budget. I do the best I can for everyone in this house, but there are limits. The kids wear Target, and the dogs get the clearance toys.


You all have been great with the advice. I appreciate it!

[ 05-07-2005, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: scout ]
 

luvxl k 9

New member
I'll let the seasoned breeders on here tell you about Science Diet!!! I haven't had any experience with it but a good friend of mine fed it to her Great Pyr's for a short time and had really bad results from it. Also keep in mind that vets deal with every type animal, every size and don't specialize in giant breed dogs, your breeder would definatley know best on that score. With Apache I had 3 vets recommend Large Breed Puppy Food (major no no I found out after finding NN) I use Nutra Choice Adult maintenence DF (PetSmart Brand) and it is expensive but has no fillers and is packed with boocoos of vitamins and also includes the glucosamine and Chondroitin. To make a long story short if I had listened to the advice of the vets including a specialist at the U of I, Apache would be crippled by now or would have already had to be put down. Instead he is thriving and if he doesn't quit taking off on me I may be sorry that we fixed his legs so well!!! JK!!! :D
 

scout

New member
Okay, bring it on about the food. I want to know. I did go to the websites to compare ingredients and percentages. I see that Diamond has more protein and fat, but the ingredients seem to be about the same.

What in the heck should I be looking for? Pound pup Scout the husky eats Iams, readily available at the grocery store, and is the picture of health. Our old dog Max, who passed away last year at the ripe old age of 11, ate Science Diet all his life. He never had an issue, except he got a little fat for a couple of years.


I'm an ENGLISH teacher....all this scientific thinking is just killin' me. Got any symbols for me to interpret? Grammar to correct?
 

ardeagold

New member
The specific brands are usually based on personal choice and whatever works best for your particular dog. Many people here use many different brands of food. The one thing that seems to be a common thread with most here, however, is that only Adult food should be used, and a super-premium food has much better ingredients.

We (and others on the board) use Canidae and Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover's Soul. However, other great foods are Wellness fish based foods, Wysong Synorgen, Eagle Pack fish based foods, etc.

The reason for using these types of foods is because many dogs have allergies to wheat, corn, and soy, and these ingredients are not found in any of them. Also, they use no chemical preservatives, and used what is referred to as "human grade ingredients" versus rendered meats. (They're not really allowed to say "human grade" per the FDA regulations separating human and animal feed, but they do say it, with a disclaimer) It lets us know our animals aren't getting road kill, or diseased animals mulched together.

They all have meat or meat meal as a first ingredient (the primary source of protein) listed on the bag. Some have more than one meat or meat meal in the first five ingredients. You'll notice, however, that the fish based foods have one primary source of protein...fish. Often a dog will have problems with the "normal" primary proteins...beef in particular, chicken and even lamb. So these formulas have eliminated them. Newfs do great on fish...it's what they originally ate. They caught their own dinner or shared the family's dinner which was fish-based in coastal communities.

The grains are filler...you don't need them, but they are used in kibble. Rice and oats are usually fine...yet I believe some here even have problems with rice. Most fish-based kibble has either potato or sweet potato instead of grains.

Some have probiotics, digestive enzymes, fruits, veggies, etc added. And, even though they're very different, they're all very good quality foods.

They're not inexpensive, yet you do feed less while getting better nutrition, and often it keeps the dogs away from the Vet's doorstep for treatment of skin, ear, and digestive ailments, (which are usually allergy related). So,the cost in dollars is actually less over time.

Some breeds just don't have allergy problems like others do. Many believe they're hereditary. Many believe they're a result of environment. I believe they're a result of both, and I've dealt with more than one allergic dog over the years. Since switching to super-premium foods and being vigilent about keeping them away from wheat, corn and soy (in food, treats, and table scraps), the allergies are gone.

I haven't been to a Vet for any allergy related problems for at least three years...and I have 12 dogs. So is it just luck? I doubt it. I believe the diet change has been the determining factor in their overall great health.

The reason for feeding Adult foods to a Newf are purely growth related. There are many discussions to be found by using the Search button about the proper amounts of protein, cacium and phosphorus. They're extremely important discussions and have much valuable information.

All of the foods I mentioned fall into the parameters for proper nutritional balance for Giant Breeds, per studies done in major Universities. That's why many, if not most, on this forum use them.

You mentioned one thing I've also noticed in many dogs. They live long and healthy lives on grocery store foods. Our Yellow Lab lived to be 17! Of course she at a lot of our food too...and moles, rabbits etc, which she caught. Bleh.

Newfs, until fairly recently were fairly short lived. I believe 8 was considered old. Many are living a good deal longer now, perhaps due to better breeding, or perhaps it's a combination of better and higher quality nutrition plus better breeding. In my opinion, it's the latter. Plus, they're living better quality lives, with fewer illnesses and overall health problems.

Hope this helps a bit!

PS...I'm so happy to hear that Atticus' heart murmer is softening. Hopefully, it'll be completely gone when you visit your Vet again!

And, please....NO correcting grammar and/or writing ability...UGH!!! :eek:


[ 05-07-2005, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: Ardeagold ]
 

scout

New member
Thanks Donna, that helped a lot. Could you clarify one point? Newf puppies should get adult food too? I'm assuming the reason would be to keep growth slow to prevent joint issues.

I did go back 100 days and read a number of threads. SOme of them confused the heck out of me (again, that anti-science reflex) or were far to detailed for a newby who just wants to know brand and why.

The gist of it that I got is that allergies seem to be a main concern, as well as nutrition to prevent joint problems. Low grains, high proteins, many supplements are important.

Donna, you have other dogs too. Are Newfs so different physiologically?
 

scout

New member
okay...I reread your post Donna, and apparently I'm not awake enough yet. I get it. Newf pups get adult food.

why isn't there an emoticon for "I'm a dumb dumb"?
 

luvxl k 9

New member
No you're aren't a dumb dumb, you are just a Newbie to a giant breed like I was when I got Apache. I still wish I had found NN before Apache started having problems. Like I said before, all the vets I went to recommended Science Diet Large Breed Puppy food two of them even gave me small bags of it. To Apache, who also has an allergy to chicken liver (which is in almost everything, including their breath mints!!) it was virtually poison as was the Iams LBPF we actually had him on. Donna is right on about the puppy foods and large breed puppy foods. They even make one now for giant breeds but when looking at the bag I couldn't find any difference ingredient or nutrition wise that was any different from the LBPF. It is confusing! You want the right protein levels not to high not to low, usually around 20-22%. But then if you look at the percentages on moist dog food their percentages are completely different from the dry food! You have to have a table to convert it to the same as the moist....how do you change percentages????
Donna is also right that even though the better foods are more expensive, they are so much better for your dog, they eat less, since there are no fillers it is easier on their tummies, digestive system and better for their over all health. Kind of a pay me now or pay me later mentality!!! Only the later payment is going to your vet!!
Just please if you don't listen to anything else that is said, please get Atticus off all puppy food and on a good balanced adult food!!!
 

ardeagold

New member
LOL...I understand what you mean about the food threads. Fortunately for those of us who were originally involved in them, they were a gradual process. Going back and reading them all at once isn't easy, that's for sure!

You got it...no puppy food. Use the Adult. Use a super premium. If you find after a month you're having problems, then find another super premium. I'd say you'd be safest from the start with a fish based food for Newfs. I don't, however, use fish-based foods. Ours get chicken based foods. But they do have fish meal in them as well. We've had no problems, so obviously ours have no sensitivity to chicken, turkey or lamb.

Now, there is one line of reasoning which says that by keeping dogs away from wheat, corn, and soy, we're helping to actually PROMOTE allergies in the future. I don't know if that's true or not. I do know that if the dog doesn't have any allergy-related symptoms from these foods, there's no reason NOT to give them.

But, if you'll notice, most of the super premiums don't have them. There seems to be a preponderance of evidence which supports the theory that a large majority of dogs do not fare well on them in bulk. Some people use the super premiums, yet still give "normal" treats (like Milk Bones, etc). The dogs are fine.

For a dog who's obviously symptomatic, ALL foods need to be clear of the better known allergens to alleviate the symptoms.

Yes, we have many dogs. But all are Large and Giant Breeds. They have many of the same issues which are caused by fast growth. Some Goldens and Labs are close to 100 lbs. They're not fat, it's a result of their lineage. No, they're not supposed to be, per AKC breed standards, but they are. Breeders have been breeding them larger, because that's what the public wants.

We have a couple of large males. Both hover around 90 lbs. Those lines would have very similar problems that a Newf has if they grow too fast. CHD is a huge problem with Large Breed dogs.

So...we also do everything to keep growth slowed down. Goldens and Labs do fine on LBP food however. Yet, some breeders are switching off LBP once the pups reach 5 mos of age. They're finding, as with Newfs, it keeps the growth rate down. For the smaller lines, it's not necessary. For the larger lines, it is.

We switch ours to Adult food at 5 mos. Ours aren't gigantic lines. In fact they fall within the AKC breed standard parameters. But we were still having bouts of Pano even with the LBP food. Now we're not. Soooo...in my experience, it's a good idea.

I haven't owned Newfs long enough to know how severe the food allergy problem within the breed is overall. I've met very few Goldens without them, and Labs are close behind. So, since our Goldens and Lab need to stay away from the allergens, our Newfs are fed the same way. I will say, we've had no problems with the Newfs, but honestly, I don't know if we would have to begin with.

All I can say is that by feeding better foods, we've had healthy dogs. For years. Hopefully, they live long lives without major health problems. That's our goal. So far, so good!!

[ 05-08-2005, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: Ardeagold ]
 

Sailorgirl

New member
Great news about the heart murmur! Hopefully at the next check up it will be gone entirely!

As for the weight gain, actually that sounds about right. What I found interesting was how varied the weight gain was from week to week. Some weeks were almost nothing. I had one week with hudson with a 6 or 7 pound gain, but then hardly anything for a couple weeks after that. The 10 pound per month rule is a good one, and I've found that most weeks are a 2 to 3 pound gain, but it all seems to depend on how much and what kind of growing they are doing. Seems to me that they will grow tall and skinny and long and then then next week they will fill that out and have a large weight gain.

Good luck!
 

sarnewfie

New member
but about the cystinuria testing, or lack thereof. They could have just said they didn't do it, but they didn't do it and justified it with a line of bull. Don't worry, I'll contact them this week.
################
does your pup have cystinuria?
as was posted, the tests are not foolproof.
human errors occur, that is no excuse for the breeder, but...it will do you no good in your relationship if you come off angry, instead try to educate them, be patient, and *maybe* just maybe they will listen, thought some are hopeless.
it is to the point now, many will have owners test their pups to be sure if there is any concern due to errors that can and do happen with thetests on the adults.
i still think dna is just that, and if the test is correct pups are cleared out of two cleared adults that are their parents, but now we have the nagging thoughts that errors do occur in the labs, one of the reasons i heard, is that the labs hold enough swabs until they have enough to do the test, holding swabs for a certain time, it is understandable that some might; just might get switched or misplaced in the wrong envelopes.
 

scout

New member
Part of the reason why I waited to contact the breeder was so I wouldn't sound mad when I did talk to them. I don't want to ruin the relationship I have built with them, and I do want to make them understand why it was important (and still is) to test their dogs for cystinuria. That's the good side of me talking. The little devil defintely still wants them to sweat a little.


As it is now, Atticus hasn't been tested yet. He will be. Remember, we've only had him two weeks now. We're still working out all the things we need to do. Our poor Scout hasn't had the same attention...bet she wishes she was a very expensive dog that requires a frickin' manual to raise. LOL

About the food. I did a little research and our local Petco does carry Wysock Synorgen and a couple of other brands many of you have suggested. We'll be switching over at the end of this bag. I'm also taking a copy of this thread to my vet at the next visit.

Thanks again you all. Your advice on all topics has proven invaluable.
 

sarnewfie

New member
A word of caution
when switching from a crappy food like science diet, i apologize for lack of better words for that food LOL
make it VERY GRADUAL
as in throw in a small handful of wysong, to the normal diet of science crap, oh did i say that? ROTFL!!!
anyway, make it gradual and the switch over to about two weeks.
 

scout

New member
Thanks sarnewfie! I'll keep that in mind. I have about half a small bag to go, then we'll be moving on.


Again, and sorry if I'm going on ad nauseam, but THANKS TO ALL OF YOU! I don't know where I'd be without you all.
 
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