Alpha Rollover

[macgirl13ca]

Why is the alpha rollover not recommended for adults? And I guess define adult. Do you mean full grown weight wise or mentally full grown. SAR, when you say you've seen negative reactions, do you mean aggressive? When Bubba is VERY bad, and obviously questioning my authority as alpha (very rarely lately) I have done the roll, and he's always immediately stopped, and immediately quieted down. I just don't want to be doing something that is either bad for Bubba's 'mental health' or my physical health If he's not all out insane, I generally give him a time out in the bathroom alone for 5 minutes and that works, but on rare occasions, it hasn't and as soon as I let him out, he tears around the house and barks incessantly again. I've never choked him down or anything, just 'rolled' him onto his back and grab his scruff and 'growl' no at him. Please tell me if I'm doing something wrong. Again, it's not a common thing that it happens, just him testing his limits.

 

[Jeannie]

In my opinion the alpha roll (also called submission)is great to use no matter what the age. When I got Sam she was one year old, if I didn't know to use the alpha roll, I don't think she would have ever come around. Rescue thought of putting her down because of her aggressiveness. She had bite her previous owners on more than one occasion. The first two weeks I had her seems all I did was correct and roll her. Then one day a light bulb came on and she was wonderful.

Now the alpha roll simulates animals in the wild. If you watch nature shows, say lions, the alpha is always on top and the submissive usually will lay in it's side, a sign of submission. To me it is a very good training tool. It is used my many trainers. If you are not alpha, you will loose.

SAR said (I quote) "I would not however do an alpha roll on a newf, it is unaffective and is negative" and "I have seen to many adults react the opposite and negativly". My opinion is if the newf had negative/opposite reaction then something is wrong. (Who would you think is alpha? Certainly not the human) If I had a newf that reacted opposite and negativly, I would put him/her right back down until the newf displayed the behavior I wanted with no signs of aggressiveness. Granted it may take some time. At first with Sam I had to keep her down for five mintues. (always keep them down until they stop struggling) So I know it can be done. If done properly, yes it is affective. (Also size does not matter, I am only a bit over 100 lbs and Sam was about that same weight at the time) Even today, I told Sam to say in a down, she kept getting up, after the third time I did an alpha roll and she never got up again until I told her. And she is 5 years old!!! Panda is 8 and I still use it on her. (Sara, age 11 1/2 never needs it--she is our angel

)

In my opinion, you are not doing anything wrong. You stated "Bubba is VERY bad, and obviously questioning my authority as alpha (very rarely lately) I have done the roll, and he's always immediately stopped, and immediately quieted down." Isn't this proof that it works? Why question it?

[ 01-02-2003, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: jggrosch ]

 

[dragonmeister]

I believe the alpha has its place and is effective but some dogs are not good candidates. I have used the alpha roll many times for a number of dogs till I got my Dragon. Let me tell you that the name I gave him showed a lot of foresight because he lives up to his name.
Dragon is VERY alpha. He has all the other wonderful newf temperament characteristics but he is top dog in all groups.
I first did the alpha roll on him when he was a puppy because he growled when I tried to move him to get into the house. His reaction was very strong and definite and he didn't back down at all.
I got on the internet and read all I could about dominant dogs and I learned alternative methods. First I had to do domination exercises with Dragon. These included straddling him, staring him down all the other usual exercises.
One site from a police and protection dog trainer had dealt with a lot of very dominant dogs and he recommended to not do the alpha roll on these dogs as this could bring about aggressiveness. With Dragon I could see this happening. He cautioned to choose our battles in these cases and respect the genetic personality the dog came with.
Dragon is now almost three years old and is an intact breeding male. He tends to be uppity when he is doing his 'job' with his mate but a firm reminder brings him around.
He is very obedient, calm, and gentle. His demeanor, stance and behaviour with other dogs shows his self-confident, self-assured belief that he is top dog in the doggy world. He is not aggressive but persistent in enforcing his position and willing and able to claim it. Had he been neutered early on, his dominant traits could have been minimized.
He still will not be placed on his back or rolled on his side if he does not want to but there are no other dominance issues. I firmly believe that had I persisted in trying to assert my position by doing the alpha roll on him our relationship as master and dog would have been ruined.
My other two newfs ( female and male) responded well to the alpha roll when it was required but they have very different personalities.
It was my first experience with this type of dog and the first time I had to consider another method than the alpha roll.
I am not saying that the alpha roll is not useful or effective, only that in some cases is not the method to use and it is important to identify these cases.

Anne

 

[dmcgynn]

I agree with you Anne, Jake is not a candidate for the alpha rollover in fact he would get more agressive so I had to quit it because as soon as I let him up he was right back at what had put him there in the first place and I would wait a couple minutes before I would let him up after he quit fighting. He is still very alpha but he is getting better, partly due to age he is almost 1 and partly to my persistance. These guys can definitely try our patience and on that note I get my new baby girl in about a week! Better load up on the excedrin now I guess. LOL

Diane

 

[bearbearsmom]

Diane - I bet you're excited for your new baby girl. I think Jake and Bear are about the same age and he is getting along famously with his new baby sister. They are becoming such good friends and it was the best thing we could have done for him. I still recommend the Exedrin in the cupboard, though.

Nancy, Bear and Bumper

 

[aga_ing]

This might be a silly question but what exactly is the alpha roll? I could use a step-by-step description just to make sure I got it right. When do you use it?

I guess I should start practicing, Ludo will become a big boy soon... He is a sweethart now but I can see his character budding already: when he feels it's too cold for a walk, he put his butt on the ground and act like he's an obstinate donkey...

 

[robandrobin]

I believe baby time is the best time to start. But others may not agree.
We did with Bryce even though bryce, as a baby, was very mellow and didn't need "alpha rolls"
We had picked up a book named "Super PuppY" that describes different "alpha rolls"
The one we used frequently while Bryce was a baby was having him in our lap (sitting cross legged until he was too big!) and just rolling him on his tummy and look over him, and if he didn't wiggle (which he didn't) then we'd do tummy rubs and put our face next to his while still being "on top" kind of. We were over him at any rate. This was just our way of congratulating him for relaxing when he did not fight being rolled (ever so gently) on his back. The other one would be cradling him like a baby in our arms but he was on his back. We always did these things on the floor so he wouldn't get hurt if he did wiggle.
We were loving him, but also letting him know right away that we were the top dogs in the home.
Now he's older, it's completely different. If he definately needs an "Alpha Roll" which is rare, I scoop my hand under his behind and make him sit, then scoop my arms under his front legs making him laydown, and I roll him, but it's a very fast process. He knows it. But like I said it's rare. This is the only way I know to do it without injuring him or me! It'll be interesting to hear from others.
There are times that he's laying down and we'll still roll him on his back and rub his tummy while we look him in the face. He's very mellow when we do that and we always say what a good boy and rub his tummy some more!
When we were at KPT class My husband and I noticed that a lot of pups really trully did not like to be on their back for any reason and they would scream, cry, bite, and etc. It was very interesting. So we did this on a regular basis whenever we thought about it.
Robin

[ 01-03-2003, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: RobandRobin ]

 

[dragonmeister]

My experience is that the true obedience alpha roll is to be used in serious circumstances only. As the dog gets older and larger it becomes more and more difficult to do.
There are other intermediate methods that can be used. There is the frontal neck grabbing and shaking ( again, not for dominant dogs or aggressive dogs), there is the correction from the back of the neck and the lifting and shaking from the back of the neck.
The useful alternative for alpha dogs is the hanging from the leash. This sounds WAY worse than it is. You lift the dog off its front feet and hold him there for a few seconds. If he is very resistant you hold him till you hear him make small coughing sounds ( for VERY bad cases). You scold him in a firm strong but not angry voice ie: bad dog, and then you let him down gently while saying good dog.
This works with large dogs. You don't need to hold him off the ground very high - a few inches will do. Dragon responded very well to this. When he was very bad, I would scold him firmly and tie him to my computer chair while I was working. I would not look or talk to him and when I was finished I would release him with no praise for 30 minutes.
I also had to do dominance stares with him when he was a puppy. It actually took over a week of exercises before he would look away!

Anne

 

[AmyPC]

Rory was also not a good one for the alpha roll. Some of the posters might remember rory was a nightmare puppy - very dominant, alpha and all that...she used to bite a lot (as in, puppy bite that became quite persistent and painful), she used to physically harrass me. (I know it sounds stupid now, at the time, it seemed very serious). She would lunge, snap, bite, etc. and not give up - this would go on for a half hour period with repeated corrections - she was like a robot programmed to maim! (This was at the age of about 16 weeks!)

We got a lot of advice from books, websites, other doggie people and all that; the alpha roll was recommended. We did use it and sometimes had some success - but often, it would make her an absolute dog possessed and she acted like she wanted to kill you when you did it(and after). Some people will say I wasn't doing it right or whatever - maybe that's the case, but I think really, it just wasn't suited to Rory. (We also used to use the scruff shake, that didn't make her mad but didn't have as much effect either). A few times the alpha roll seemed to shock or scare her but other times, it made her more determined to 'get' you once you let her up, after she stopped struggling. (And yep, I was holding her down for up to 5 minutes too).

Other anti-dominant tactics we used were staring down, spitting in her food, eating first, going through doors first, etc. Behaviour corrections were yelling NO, hand down throat for puppy biting (we found this MOST valuable, recommended by GAD), yelping like a puppy (only served to make her more determined) and isolation for 10 minutes. (Hated it, HATED IT, HATED IT)

The thing that ended up working was dog training school. While it didn't specifically address Rory's dominance problem, it addressed the dog/owner dynamics simply by repeating and repeating commands and exercises and showing the dog they need to do what you tell them. It not only taught her to drop really well (which we have found invaluable), it just made her an all-round better behaved dog. The issues we had with her soon diminished and have long disappeared.

But, like Jeannie said - if it works on your dog, cool! If it worked on my next dog, I would use it when necessary! Just not on Rory. Well actually, maybe if something bad cropped up, I would use it on Rory these days, as she is a different dog so would probably react much better to it.

 

[berryann]

I know many on this board have used this tecnique successfully, but I thought it should be pointed out that there is disagreement about it in the professional behavior and training world. Job Michael Evans, one of the primary authors of the Monks Of New Skete book which advocated it said he wished the alpha roll had never been mentioned in the book, and the latest edition of the book does not suggest it. The book says,
""We no longer recommend this technique and strongly discourage its use to our clients. (I)n a dog-human context it is potentially very dangerous and can set up the owner for a serious bite in the face (or worse), particularly with a dominant dog. The conditions in which it might be used effectively are simply too risky and demanding for the average dog owner; there are other ways of dealing with problem behavior that are much safer and, in the long run, just as effective."
Dr. Patricia McDonnell, a well known behaviorist, argues against its use, as do several others, saying that it is not representative of how canines actually use discipline, that it can create fear in pets, and that it is mostly effective for dogs that don't need it, and dangerous for those who do.
I absolutely believe that there are those who have used the roll and feel it helped a great deal, and don't mean to say that your view is wrong. but I do think that opposing viewpoints should be heard, so that we can each make a well-informed choice about how we deal with our very individual dogs.
"Different plants make an interesting garden".

 

[Huey]

This is so interesting! I had used the alpha roll on Huey as a pup and it always made him fight harder though he would eventually stop fighting and lay there. But that didn't really solve any of his rambuctiousness. Not until we started obedience classes did he come around. I've also read in books (ain't misbehavin' and how to speak dog) that the alpha roll is not the way to go for some dogs, that it is better to do what others have suggested: walking thru doors first, eating first, obedience classes, etc. Information from the book also says that doing an alpha roll is like forcing a child to say i love you but they don't really mean it. If a dog accepts you as leader they will willingly go on their backs for you. Also when they are sitting stand beside them and place your hand on their shoulder or head. if they accept your hand there without moving they have accepted you as the leader. Again this is from the book but I found it very interesting as I had previously thought the alpha roll was the way to go but obviously not for all dogs.

 

[AmyPC]

Originally posted by Huey:
Information from the book also says that doing an alpha roll is like forcing a child to say i love you but they don't really mean it. If a dog accepts you as leader they will willingly go on their backs for you. Also when they are sitting stand beside them and place your hand on their shoulder or head. if they accept your hand there without moving they have accepted you as the leader.

Hey this is very interesting Huey, Rory now willingly rolls over and all that when she certainly wouldn't have done so before!

 

[Huey]

Huey just started to rollover for us a couple months ago and he is 1 yrs old now. We did the alpha roll when he was a puppy but it didn't really curb his rambunctiousness. What really helped was the obedience classes! i could post an excerpt from the book 'How to speak dog' by stanley coren on the alpha roll, but would that be copy right infringment?

 

[Nicole]

Can't tell Rory and Tayla are sisters. We had exactly the same problems with dominace with Tayla. We tried the alpha roll and her and it made her worse. She saw it as some sort of challenge and would try and rip your throat out.
We then invested a hell of a lot of time and money into home training. Money well spent. It reinforced the positions in the pack. We were alpha and Tayla came under us. With a hell of a lot of time and effort she finally realised that she wasn't top dog and we have never looked back since.
About six months ago (at about 1 1/2 yrs old) she finally rolled over onto her back for us. Now she enjoys having her belly rubbed regularly.
Now we realise that we were the problem to start of with. Tayla never knew her place in the pack. We were way to soft and inconsistent with the rules. A big no no, but hard when they give you that look with their cute puppy faces.

[ 01-13-2003, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: Nicole ]

 

[Jeannie]

Wow, this topic is so interesting. I for one was a firm believer in the Alpha Roll, but am starting to think twice about it. Of course I always knew there were dogs I would never think of trying it on, but this really has opened by eye.

Huey, I think you could post the excerpt from the book as long as you give credit to the author and name the book. I for one am eager to hear (read) what it says.

I just love this forum. With so many people posting their opinions, I can learn new stuff all the time. It's great!!!!

 

[AmyPC]

Originally posted by Nicole:
Now we realise that we were the problem to start of with. Tayla never knew her place in the pack. We were way to soft and inconsistent with the rules. A big no no, but hard when they give you that look with their cute puppy faces.

Yes, we were definitely a lot of the problem with Rory. We needed to be firm with her from day 1. A kind of firm our last dog, a Golden Retriever, just didn't require. However, I do think Tayla and Rory had that kind of dominant personality bred into them anyway.

Next dog - we will be laying down the RULES! (If required. )

 

[newfloverqc]

One of the things I read in a book about pups is how to chose a pup.

They said the ideal pup is one who will go on its back and settle down after resisting just a bit. If it resists too much, it is more dominant, no resistance means it is too submissive.

Now, don't laugh, but the last time I bought a KITTEN, I did this to the kitten. The people where I got the kitten thought I was nuts, but I kept trying differnet kittens until I got one that calmed down after resisting a bit. (He was also gorgeous).

He is the best cat you could ask for. He comes when I call him, he "talks" on command, he fetches a ball. My wife's cat was jealous of our unborn child. When my daughter was born, MY cat would station himself just inside her nursery and swat at my wife's cat when it tried to go in the nursery. Normally the two got along very well.

My daughter pulled his fur, his ears, and he never once bit her, the same with my son.

I miss him.....

 

[torydog]

Just a thought. When we got Tory she was 6 months old and totally out of control. My husband was very on top of her every move. There were many times when she was on the leash in the house and tied to his belt. Now when my husband comes home Tory will greet him at the door and as soon as he comes in she rolls onto her back. She won't do that with me just yet. But we are working on it.

 

[dogger]

I agree there are dogs you can and cannot use an alpha roll on. Boagie's mother was an alpha bitch as was her 1/2 sister (who we had for 4 months) and from what I understand all of her female sibblings half and other wise (not a characteristic I would pass on in breeding) We gave Boag the benefit of the doupt until she tried to bite Brian in the face just for cuddling.
That was the first time we used it. After that, occasionally flipping her over and holding her there. Then there was the stolen bread where she tried to bite me then tried to back ME down. That was not about to happen. I got her into a submissive point and held her there while growling no until she relaxed. I'll tell you what I can take anything out of her mouth now. She may hang on tight, but no growling, biting or testing. We will still hold her down, then praise but she is aware of the pecking order.
Baby on the other hand.. If we ever did that to her I think she would fall apart and NEVER!!!! rebound from it. You have to know your dog.

 

[macgirl13ca]

Wow! Lots of excellent info here for both angles. I agree with the general concensus I think you have to know your dog. It's not something I do often, in fact it hasn't been done since before starting this topic. Bubba seems to be going thru a very well behaved stage, let's hope it lasts .I do prefer the down stay or time out as an alpha exercise, there are just instances I think my dog needs a little more. Bubba does roll over on his back to me on his own, I always rub his belly when he does, and I honestly never thought of it in the same way as an alpha roll til I read this post.