Question for CD
- Thread starter sarnewfie
- Start date
Sailorgirl
New member
In other words ... either way you get a point deduction, so are you better to take the dedcution for them not sitting on halt or to take the deductin (or is it an NQ) for giving a command when you're not supposed to?
2Paws
New member
It was my understanding that you NQ if they don't sit when you halt and point deductions if you give them a sit command. I was told by a judge, better off giving them the sit command and take the point deductions. Would be curious to hear from someone more experienced on their thoughts.
Sailorgirl
New member
Here's what I found in the rules but it doesn't really explain it ...
Minor or substantial deductions, depending on the
circumstances, will be made for additional commands
or signals to heel or for failure of dog or handler to
speed up noticeably for the fast or slow down
noticeably for the slow.
Substantial or minor deductions shall be made for
lagging, heeling wide, forging, crowding, poor sits,
failure to sit at a halt, and other heeling imperfections.
Deductions should also be made for a handler who
guides the dog with the leash or does not walk at a
brisk pace.
Minor or substantial deductions, depending on the
circumstances, will be made for additional commands
or signals to heel or for failure of dog or handler to
speed up noticeably for the fast or slow down
noticeably for the slow.
Substantial or minor deductions shall be made for
lagging, heeling wide, forging, crowding, poor sits,
failure to sit at a halt, and other heeling imperfections.
Deductions should also be made for a handler who
guides the dog with the leash or does not walk at a
brisk pace.
Jeannie
Super Moderator
From what I understand a no sit is not an NQ - just points deducted. If you give your dog a voice command it is another deduction. So it is better to have a no sit than take more deductions for a command.
In some cases a voice command works. Sam had a habit of lagging. If I gave her a voice command she would heel fine from that point on. So I would give her a voice command "heel up", take a slight deduction but less of a deduction than lagging the whole time which could end in an NQ. I was told by my instructor that if you are going to give a voice command make sure your dog will respond (correct the problem) so you don't get more deductions.
In some cases a voice command works. Sam had a habit of lagging. If I gave her a voice command she would heel fine from that point on. So I would give her a voice command "heel up", take a slight deduction but less of a deduction than lagging the whole time which could end in an NQ. I was told by my instructor that if you are going to give a voice command make sure your dog will respond (correct the problem) so you don't get more deductions.
Sailorgirl
New member
Thanks Jeannie ... that helps a lot.
Annie Milliron
Alpha Goddess
What Jeannie said!!! 
Sailorgirl
New member
OK here's another question then. Jeannie mentioned that with Sam she would take the points deduction for giving a second heel command knowing that in the end that was better than losing more points for continually lagging. Who else will do a similar thing for obedience ... knowingly take a points deduction for something knowing that it's better than the alternative and under what circumstances?
Ivoryudx
New member
Yup, a 'no sit' is not a NQ - Just points off - usually 2-3 points.
Yup, a second heel command during the pattern, if your losing your dog, will help you not lose more points in the long run, providing your dog responds correctly.
Now, for a grey area. I TYPICALLY would not give a 'sit' command on a halt, unless the pattern is full of halts. This is another reason why its so important to watch the pattern before you go in the ring. If there are multiple halts, and my dog does not sit on the first halt, I will say 'sit' and take the points off on that halt in hopes it is a little reminder to sit on the others. Sometimes if you lose the first one, and don't get a verbal correction in there, your going to lose them all. A pattern with two halts during the heeling and then the final can be 6-9 points off without a verbal, or 4-5 off with one verbal.
I also would not give an extra 'heel' command unless I totally lost my dog. If the dog lags behind, but maintains a constant distance, and changes pace with me, without getting lost, catches up on the halts, fasts, etc, let the judge decide what they want to do. Many will only take 3-5 points and let it go at that. Of course if you meet your dog on an about turn, because he didn't go with you, or you finish the pattern by yourself, then an extra command is needed, but that is not the only thing.
If you do give the extra 'heel' command, and the judge has already taken 3-5 points for a bad lag, your adding another 2-3 points on top of it, so make sure it is perfectly timed so the dog responds, and be sure not to do a hand signal at the same time.
To answer the last part of Sailorgirls question.... In reality there isn't much anyone can do to take a deduction instead of a NQ. There are a few things to do to TRY and take the lesser points off, but they don't always work.
On the other hand, there are many things to do to take an NQ, instead of a point deduction. If I want my dog to do better the next time, or I want them to know what they did wrong, when they did it, I'll verbally, or signal my dog to NQ them. This is much more common in Open and Utility than Novice, where many more things can go wrong. Drop on Recall is a biggy that comes to mind at the moment because that is what I'm currently working on. If my dog doesn't look like he's going down 'quickly', on my command, I'll give another command, immediately NQ'ing him, weather he drops or not. Hopefully, he'll drop on the second command, but at least he did not get away with a slow drop that could cost 3-5 points the next time we're in the ring.
Of course this is all based solely on a handlers ability to THINK when they get in the ring! Don't let stage fright or nerves get the best of you.
Edited to clarify that not dropping on a DOR is an NQ. I was thinking of a slow drop, and not a refusal to drop.
[ 02-08-2006, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: Ivoryudx ]
Yup, a second heel command during the pattern, if your losing your dog, will help you not lose more points in the long run, providing your dog responds correctly.
Now, for a grey area. I TYPICALLY would not give a 'sit' command on a halt, unless the pattern is full of halts. This is another reason why its so important to watch the pattern before you go in the ring. If there are multiple halts, and my dog does not sit on the first halt, I will say 'sit' and take the points off on that halt in hopes it is a little reminder to sit on the others. Sometimes if you lose the first one, and don't get a verbal correction in there, your going to lose them all. A pattern with two halts during the heeling and then the final can be 6-9 points off without a verbal, or 4-5 off with one verbal.
I also would not give an extra 'heel' command unless I totally lost my dog. If the dog lags behind, but maintains a constant distance, and changes pace with me, without getting lost, catches up on the halts, fasts, etc, let the judge decide what they want to do. Many will only take 3-5 points and let it go at that. Of course if you meet your dog on an about turn, because he didn't go with you, or you finish the pattern by yourself, then an extra command is needed, but that is not the only thing.
If you do give the extra 'heel' command, and the judge has already taken 3-5 points for a bad lag, your adding another 2-3 points on top of it, so make sure it is perfectly timed so the dog responds, and be sure not to do a hand signal at the same time.
To answer the last part of Sailorgirls question.... In reality there isn't much anyone can do to take a deduction instead of a NQ. There are a few things to do to TRY and take the lesser points off, but they don't always work.
On the other hand, there are many things to do to take an NQ, instead of a point deduction. If I want my dog to do better the next time, or I want them to know what they did wrong, when they did it, I'll verbally, or signal my dog to NQ them. This is much more common in Open and Utility than Novice, where many more things can go wrong. Drop on Recall is a biggy that comes to mind at the moment because that is what I'm currently working on. If my dog doesn't look like he's going down 'quickly', on my command, I'll give another command, immediately NQ'ing him, weather he drops or not. Hopefully, he'll drop on the second command, but at least he did not get away with a slow drop that could cost 3-5 points the next time we're in the ring.
Of course this is all based solely on a handlers ability to THINK when they get in the ring! Don't let stage fright or nerves get the best of you.
Edited to clarify that not dropping on a DOR is an NQ. I was thinking of a slow drop, and not a refusal to drop.
[ 02-08-2006, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: Ivoryudx ]
Sailorgirl
New member
Great advice as always Susan .. thanks!
Handlers are supposed to think in the ring?
Handlers are supposed to think in the ring?
Annie Milliron
Alpha Goddess
Was hoping you'd get out of the "vault" and post Susan!
Sailorgirl
New member
Susan definitely knows her stuff so I'm glad she replied too but I love to hear a variety of opinions/comments!
Sailorgirl
New member
But only on some exercises. For instance on the stays you can do both, but for recall it has to be one or the other. Thank goodness it's all so clear, huh?
