Landseer genetic question

NewfieGirl01

New member
I was talking with someone and I came up with a question.

How can one tell whether or not a pup is a "poor landseer" or a "black"

If you breed a landseer to a black (landseer recessive) OR two landseer recessive blacks and you get a pup with white on the tip of the paws and on the chest, how does one know the pup is not just a landseer with poor markings?


I mean, with other colors like brown and gray you'd obviously want to register as the solid color for show purposes, but is there really any way to tell other than breeding the pup to another landseer and seeing if the whole litter is landseer?


Am I way off?
 

ardeagold

New member
Breeders use it so that they don't get a surprise non-acceptable color by accident. Like grey and white, or brown and white. If you know what colors the parents carry...you know what colors the puppies can have.

Now there's no reason to have non-acceptable colors when breeding.
 

Pipelineozzy

New member
It's normal for a black pup that is landseer recessive to have some white on the tips of toes and chest. And if it has one Landseer parent, it HAS to be landseer recessive. If you breed two black dogs that both carry landseer, you can get black carry landseer, landseer, and pure for black. But your landseer recessives will very often have the white on the tips of the toes and the chest.
The way you "know"...is that it's a black puppy with a bit of white :) Rather than having a "lot" of white. And, usually, the white on the toes will fade and get smaller, although many keep some of it. The white on the chest usually stays.
 

ardeagold

New member
Yep...Mira is a Black from a Black (Landseer recessive) dam, and a Landseer sire. She has one rear foot with a little white on the toes. And used to have a little white patch on the chest, but it disappeared. The white toes stayed.
 

Sound Bay Newfs

Active member
If you breed a landseer to a black (landseer recessive) OR two landseer recessive blacks and you get a pup with white on the tip of the paws and on the chest, how does one know the pup is not just a landseer with poor markings?
It could be Irish Spotted too with those markings. And that is a separate gene.
 

janices

New member
As Lynn said it could be irish spotted which is separate gene You can end up with irish, landseer recessive.

I actually have to run the healthgene testing to see what got brought down but not done yet. Capri has done before. See other thread on DNA Testing for Color. I know somebody who thought they lost landseer breeding blacks didn't think were recessive back to landseer recessive until bred two blacks together from this and go landseers in the litter.
 
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NewfieGirl01

New member
Ah ok. What does a plain irish newfoundland look like? ( i just briefly googled it and it looks like irish on a black newf would look like the dog was almost solid black with spotting on the feet?) I'm assuming this gene can also be expressed at the same time landseer can be expressed?

Is that "ok" in the show ring with a black, brown or gray newf?

I was curious about this because I breed mice and I know in mice you can have the color "dove" for example, but really it's not a dove mouse genetically, it's a silver with very poor coloring.

So I guess my question is the same about the Newfs.

I know Landseer is supposed to have a certain amount of black and white total, but is it possible to have almost an entirely solid black LANDSEER, which would look like a black with white markings but genetically would be dominant for the landseer gene, which in turn would be considered a poor landseer.

Also in mice with the spotting gene, you can selectively breed the white spots to be large and large and large until you create a solid white mouse with black eyes (not too common) but it's not an "ivory mouse" or a "true black eyed white", it's just an over marked spotted mouse.



Oh, and in the same breath, is it possible (not that anyone would want to) but possible to selectively breed a landseer or irish spotted newfoundland to be solid white like you could with a mouse?

And is landseer a spotting gene and if so, what is spotting, black on a white coat, or white on a black coat?

And with irish spotting, is that white on a black coat, or black on a white coat?
 
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MMtnmom

New member
Irish spot would be white on a black coat, specifically white chest, white feet and white tip of tail. and maybe a blaze of white on the muzzle. Or not.
 

Sound Bay Newfs

Active member
Is that "ok" in the show ring with a black, brown or gray newf?

So I guess my question is the same about the Newfs.

I know Landseer is supposed to have a certain amount of black and white total, but is it possible to have almost an entirely solid black LANDSEER, which would look like a black with white markings but genetically would be dominant for the landseer gene, which in turn would be considered a poor landseer.

Oh, and in the same breath, is it possible (not that anyone would want to) but possible to selectively breed a landseer or irish spotted newfoundland to be solid white like you could with a mouse?

And is landseer a spotting gene and if so, what is spotting, black on a white coat, or white on a black coat?

And with irish spotting, is that white on a black coat, or black on a white coat?
You could not have a solid black Landseer since a Landseer is a white dog with black markings.

An Irish Spotted is a black dog with white markings. Both are acceptable in the show ring.
 

Codes

Active member
Health Gene does a great job. I've used them for years. When I tested Maia years ago, her certificate said she was Landseer recessive. I called the company right away as it was my understanding that there was no test that could specifically state whether or not a dog would produce Landseer. They scrambled and said yes, there is not a test for that but she did have a chance to produce puppies with white. Maia did in fact produce a Landseer pup out of her first litter. I recently tested my 6 month old puppy Devany who has a white spot on her chin, white tips on her toes, white on her paws and a white tip on her tail. She has a Landseer grandfather and she looks to be Landseer recessive according to the test. This time, however, they did not put Landseer recessive on the certificate. I think they more than likely did away with that term since it caused so much confusion.:smashy:
 

janices

New member
Ah ok. What does a plain irish newfoundland look like? ( i just briefly googled it and it looks like irish on a black newf would look like the dog was almost solid black with spotting on the feet?) I'm assuming this gene can also be expressed at the same time landseer can be expressed?
This is my boy Georg. The white on the chest typically extends under to tummy. He has 4 white toe tips and white tail tip.



His sibling Magnum has a small white blaze nose, chest patch that extends underneath, 4 white feet and tail tip.


I had 2 in a litter of blacks. Yes, they can be shown. Georg is finished champion and Magnum has points. As puppies the white patches are bigger and shrink as get older.
 
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ardeagold

New member
What Lynn said. (Sound Bay Newfs)

A Landseer Newfoundland is a WHITE dog with black markings in various patterns.

An Irish Spotted Newfoundland is a BLACK dog with white markings in specific areas...the toes, tip of tail, chest (any or all of those areas).

There is a specific gene for Landseer. There is no specific gene for Irish Spotted. They're genetically black with white markings. Interestingly the white markings show up in the same places all the time (toes/foot, chest, tail tip)...so for some reason those genes are expressed in a specific way. The white on the chest is usually a fairly large (or very large) area that's obvious.

You can have a pure black dog who is Landseer recessive who may have a spot or so of white (generally on the toes, or chest), but the markings aren't as uniform as Irish Spotted.

Janice's Georg and Magnum are what are considered Irish Spotteds. They're black with the white markings as indicated.

There are some "dark" Landseers, where the black markings cover the majority of the torso ... but genetically, they're Landseers. The white undercarriage and generally more white on the legs, etc, is often a hint, but sometimes, it's hard to ascertain without a genetic test.

And occasionally you'll see a pure black dog with a small white patch on it's chest when young. When they're grown, that patch is gone. Frankie (left...avatar) had a small white patch, and now, it's three hairs on his chest and I can't even find them unless I'm working through the coat combing to the skin. Same goes for our Addie. I know that he has no Landseer in his pedigree. Not sure about Irish Spotted. I haven't had his DNA tested for color so far, but I do know his grandmother is grey so he may well be grey recessive.

And as far as what can be shown in the US, it's right in the standard.

Color
Color is secondary to type, structure, and soundness. Recognized Newfoundland colors are black, brown, gray, and white and black.




Solid Colors--Blacks, Browns, and Grays may appear as solid colors or solid colors with white at any, some, or all, of the following locations: chin, chest, toes, and tip of tail. Any amount of white found at these locations is typical and is not penalized. Also typical are a tinge of bronze on a black or gray coat and lighter furnishings on a brown or gray coat.


Landseer--White base coat with black markings. Typically, the head is solid black, or black with white on the muzzle, with or without a blaze. There is a separate black saddle and black on the rump extending onto a white tail.


Markings, on either Solid Colors or Landseers, might deviate considerably from those described and should be penalized only to the extent of the deviation. Clear white or white with minimal ticking is preferred.
Beauty of markings should be considered only when comparing dogs of otherwise comparable quality and never at the expense of type, structure and soundness.


Disqualifications-- Any colors or combinations of colors not specifically described are disqualified.

In Canada, Brown and Grey cannot be shown.
 
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Sound Bay Newfs

Active member
There is a specific gene for Landseer. There is no specific gene for Irish Spotted. They're genetically black with white markings. .
There is a separate genetic component to IS from Landseer. It is recessive, so both parents have to have it. Also, just white on the toes is not IS. I has to cover the whole foot.
 

Pipelineozzy

New member
Actually Lynn, Marg and I submitted DNA from two litters that had Irish spotted pups in it to try to identify the "irish". They came back with NOTHING. (We were hoping to find something so that you could coat color test for it like we do for Landseer, grey, brown etc.) The study was done by the same woman that identified the other colors, Sheila Schmutz at the University of Saskatchewan. The actual "irish spotted" genetics that exist in other breeds like the border collie etc. does not exist in our breed. There is no queston in my mind that it is separate and distinct, but at this point, she can't identify it and she believes it is most likely something on the black genetics that modifies pigment migration in the very early stages of development...which I suppose makes sense because she said pigment in early stages moves outwards to the extremities....and that's where the white shows up that separates them from just being an ordinary Landseer recessive dog...they ARE recessive Landseer also, but there is something modifying the black. According to her, their DNA at this point is just showing a black/landseer recessive dog. We had two litters and parents that we sent DNA for,both with one Landseer parent and one black carrying irish parent. After two months of waiting, we still don't know anymore than we did when we started lol. She did say if funding comes through eventually that allows she will take another look at it. So I guess technically, all we know at this point is that it's not "the" irish spotting gene that other breeds have, which is separate and distinct and identifiable.
 

Pipelineozzy

New member
And NO...both parents do NOT have to have the Irish. It's dominant over Landseer, so if the pup gets it from one parent, and landseer from another, they will be "irish spotted". A Landseer cannot carry Irish! When they produce an Irish it's because the other mate carried it and that was dominant. An Irish can carry Landseer, but not the other way around. It's recessive to black, and dominant over Landseer. And that's why it shows up when you breed a black dog carrying it to a Landseer. Landseer, yes, both parents have to carry it.
 
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