How to check for Health Clearances.....

Conchshell Newfoundlands

Inactive Member
Thank you for starting this good discussion ball rolling. Each breeder has their own opinions, based upon their research and experience, so I am going to express my opinion on this topic.
This is a very timely topic in our home, because my male, Beau is coming up on his 2nd birthday 11/18/05.
I do not believe in breeding prior to the 2nd birthday. AND UNTIL AFTER ALL HEALTH CLEARANCES are in. In the case of a male, my reasoning is that any hips & elbows tests would be prelims, and therefore not as accurate. In the case of a female, my previous statement applies, and also because these slow-growing giants are not physically mature ( bone growth plates closed, etc) at a younger age. Look at it from a different viewpoint: Is a human female capable of reproduction in her early teens? Yes. Is it healthy for the young woman and her baby? NO. I want my Newf girls to have as long, happy and healthy a life as possible. Therefore I will not breed them until after they are 2 and have all health clarances, and therafter, not more than once per year (every OTHER) season. Yes, I believe in posting all results, the good, the bad and the ugly on OFA
Mickey
 

wrknnwf

Active member
Another thing that isn't mentioned here is CHIC certification. When you search the OFA database, you may see a colorful CHIC icon next to a dog's name. CHIC stands for Canine Health Information Center. Certain breeds are eligible for CHIC certs if the dog has been tested for all of the health items required for that breed as outlined by the parent club. For Newfs that would be hips, elbows, heart and Cystinuria.

When the results of ALL the required tests for a particular dog are sent to OFA for inclusion in their database, OFA in turn, assigns a CHIC number to the individual dog and lists that dog on the CHIC website.

CHIC can be a great tool and I am in favor of the program. But there is a hitch. Because a dog has it's CHIC number does NOT mean it passed all the tests. This can be a source of confusion to new puppy buyers.

Some breeders use CHIC as a selling point. This is fine because for that particular dog, it means the breeder did ALL the required tests.

Where things can go terribly wrong is when a breeder uses a CHIC cert to convince the buyer that all their dogs are tested or the particular dog PASSED all the tests.

That is not true. It only means that specific dog had all of the tests done. Kudos to the breeder who does all the tests, fie on those who imply that CHIC means their dog passed all the tests.

Again, it is important for the buyer to check the OFA or CHIC site to verify the results of the tests. And again, just because a dog doesn't have a CHIC number or a test isn't included in the OFA database doesn't mean the test wasn't performed. If a breeder says they test, ask for some reliable proof. OFA even has pictures of the certificates that they issue on their site. The buyer should ask to see the original test results since anything can be forged now-a-days. Look for crimped seals and original penned in ink signatures on the form and/or watermarks on the paper if it is a certificate.
 

lam72257

Inactive Member
Hi,
I'd like sooo much to get a newf pup and have been looking into it for a while. This site is awesome, I'm learning alot, maybe too much!

The more I learn the more difficult it seems to be to find a healthy pup...it is so time consuming just to find the breeders, then to check them out as best you can. Right now I am in contact with a breeder that has the pups parents pedigrees on their web site. I looked them over and I see some dogs several times in each pedigree and some on both dogs pedigrees. They go back to gg grandparents and ggg grandparents. Is this ok?
Also the mom of the litter is listed as 2 years old and passing her health clearances and on her pedigree it states she was born Apr 2004.
I am so attracted to this breed. The price tag will be a great expense for me, one that I am willing to make but this whole process is seeming a little overwelming.
Anyway, been up too long on the computer "researching"
g'night,
Lynette
 

Angela

Super Moderator
Originally posted by lynette:
Also the mom of the litter is listed as 2 years old and passing her health clearances and on her pedigree it states she was born Apr 2004.
Lynette
Hi Lynette,
Good for you to be researching so well. I would be inclined to check with the breeder as to whether that date of birth is a typo error as the hips and elbow clearances wouldn't be OFA'd until the female is 2 yrs old.
 

Sound Bay Newfs

Active member
You are smart to be doing such great detective work, Lynette! Be careful of internet breeders especially that there are some red flags raised already with this one. You are better off going to a dog show and talking to breeders or getting a reference from your local newf club. You can find a Regional club list and breeders list on the NCA site:
www.newfdogclub.org
Good luck with your search!
 

lam72257

Inactive Member
Thanks for the advice.
When looking at pedigrees is it ok to see the a particular dogs name several times on a pedigree going back to ggg grandparents and also on the other parents pedigree?
Anyway, I think I will scrap this prospect and take your advice and look for certified breeders.
Thanks,
Lynette
 

Ivoryudx

New member
Good for you Lynette! You’re taking all the right steps. READING and CHECKING to be sure what is written and being said are correct.

Its difficult say how close a breeding you’re asking about without seeing the actual pedigree of repetitive names. There is a fine line between line breeding and inbreeding. Some people don't believe in either, while others believe a good line breeding is the only way to develop a specific thing your looking for. Keep in mind with both; you are not just doubling up on the good things a dog has to offer, but your also doubling up on the bad things as well. If it is not done carefully, with the right dogs, (dogs who have overwhelming positive attributes - health and type) it can be a disaster and the puppies and unsuspecting buyers are the ones who lose.

So in answering your question, I guess I would say, there are some fabulous dogs that have come from these types of breedings, as well as others....

One thing to keep in mind, when reading a pedigree, the person selling you the puppy may not be the person, or even the second person removed that did the breeding of the great grandparents/great great grandparents. If they were not, then they may not understand or know why that particular decision was made to do that breeding. They may have purchased from someone who purchased from someone else leaving an even bigger question mark on what was so special to have bred so closely at that time.

Overall, by the time you get to great and great great grand dogs the genes are pretty diluted down from so many other dogs in the pedigree. That’s why I get upset with some of these BYB and their advertisement that their lines come from 'champion' this or that, 4-5 generations back, or they have 'XXX' in their lines. Yes, on paper they have that in their lines, but its so far back that those particular dogs have very little influence on the current dogs, being bred.

Hopefully, the current breeder has developed some other consistency working toward a specific type of dog that is better than what they started with. Not just breeding dogs to be breeding dogs to sell to someone, to sell to someone else, keeping the pattern going.

BTW, there is no such thing as 'certified' breeders. There are breeders who breed to get something better than they started with. To better the breed, with smart decisions, healthy choices, clearances on all their dogs, and knowledge about what they have produced and why. They also know where their dogs came from/went, and they’re past history from other breeder’s lines. They show/work/train their dogs.....Then there are people who just breed to sell.

Of course, jmo

hth,

[ 01-19-2006, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Ivoryudx ]
 

lam72257

Inactive Member
Thanks, Susan. You have been very helpful. I am so grateful for this site and all who share their knowlege. I'm sure I'll be asking you all more questions as my "puppy Quest" continues.

Lynette
 

Ivoryudx

New member
Annie pointed out that it was two years ago today that this thread was originally started! I just want to add a 'THANK YOU' to everyone for continuing to keep it up to date. ;)
 

Sherrie

New member
One thing to keep in mind on OFA is that many times tests the dogs do not pass are omitted and only the passing ones are shown making it look like all testing was done. That also goes when checking the vertical pedigree on OFA as well as offspring. That is a good thing about CHIC, all information must show.
As the owner of a dog that has moderate hip dysplasia and bad elbows I can tell you that having both parents clear hips/elbows doesn't guarantee a passing score on the puppy. My girl's sire is ofa excellent hips and passed elbows. Her dam is OFA good Hips and passed elbows. It is the best thing we have at this point.I will be trying PenHip on the next puppy. My girl with the moderatley dysplastic hips shows NO sign of it so do not believe anyone saying their dog moves to well to be dysplastic. She finished her championship just fine with bad hips/elbows. By the way she is listed on the OFA website bad hips/elbows and all. I guess to me one of the MOST important things are cardiac. Where do you stop, what about torn cruciates now possibly being hereditary?
Sherrie

[ 09-10-2006, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Sherrie ]
 

ardeagold

New member
By the way she is listed on the OFA website bad hips/elbows and all. I guess to me the MOST important thing is cardiac.
I'm glad you mentioned listing the bad information on OFA. I wish everyone would do it...then we'd have a tremendous base of knowledge.

Sherri...our Mira is also listed on OFA (CERF) with punctate cataracts (which are hereditary but will NOT get worse, nor will they create any problems in the future). She got a CERF clearance anyway due to the nature of the problem (insignificant, per the Opthomologist). No problem with breeding to a clear dog, per the Opthomologist.

And she is listed with an *equivocal* heart rating, which means it isn't a genetic problem (that they know of)...just two very minor murmers (leaks in a valve - not SAS, not PDA), so she couldn't be cleared. According to the Cardio doc...breeding isn't a problem, just that she should be bred to a totally cleared (by Doppler) dog...if we wanted to do it for whatever reason. (We don't).

Unfortunately, the only way to find a potential problem is to look for *the missing clearance*. Why is it missing? Especially if all others are there. That's a huge red flag to me...and should be to anybody doing their research.

Granted, a lot of these more recent clearances weren't available in the past. So dogs just a decade (or even less) ago won't have everything we look for today. The tests didn't exist. As medical science improves, the tests become more numerous. If those dogs are *missing* certain clearances, it's probably because there weren't tests for the problems at that time.

[ 09-10-2006, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Ardeagold ]
 
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