Grey colored newfoundlands

[BluwaterNewfs]

Recessives arent rare. Not all breeders breed for all colors, but recessives arent rare at all. Whether she got "off colors" on purpose, or they just "appeared"....it would be a huge red flag to me. A breeder SHOULD know what colors to expect from their breedings. Not knowing what colors to expect means not knowing anything about your pedigrees, or not even knowing basic genetics, and a good breeder should know both. In any given litter you shouldnt be expecting gray and white, brown and white, cream etc. If that IS what you are expecting, then you arent making sound or knowledgable breeding choices. What would worry me is that if they arent careful enough to have a pretty good idea of what to expect in color, what else arent they being careful about? I dont know of any reputable breeder that ever breeds for a non-standard color

Very well said!!!

 

[Pipelineozzy]

Bottom line? A good breeder is attempting to breed dogs that meet the standard of the breed for where THEY live. And if they aren't breeding for that...I'd ask what the purpose of the breeding WAS. (Cash? Giggles?)
You can also test for recessive colors now, and then you know what you are dealing with and there does not have to be surprises.

 

[jumpinnewf]

Bristles is a gray and white and has not experienced anymore skin problems than my mix breed. She has no heart problems and is extremely healthy. I remember at one of the first newfie events we attended a breeder (not hers) came up to me and remarked how beautiful she was too bad she was the wrong color. I responded I think she is the perfect color. She comes out a breeding of a landseer mom and black dad and the litter consisted of 5 blacks, 2 black and whites and Bristles. I feel privilge to get her as the breeder was seriously thinking of keeping her because of her personality. The off color can happen no matter how careful a breeder is if the genes are right. The problem becomes when a color becomes popular and people (not breeders) start to breed for color. When you start breeding recessive to recessive over and over other recessive genes come along as well not just color. This will happen in any breed. I have to agree with the comment of a breeder using the word rare to describe an odd color outcome. It would defintely be a warning sign for me. My breeder was very up front with me before I got Bristles about not breeding her and not being able to show her because she was not a recognized color. It really always comes back to making sure you are dealing with a reputable breeder who has the best interest of the breed at heart.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

Actually, no, if a breeder suspects that their dogs are carriers..a simple dna test can test for the genetics for both gray AND brown. It can be avoided it they want to, by not using dogs that carry it together..

 

[PromisedLandNewf]

Wonderful thread!
I hope pet owners understand why the standard is so important. It's what keeps our Newfs Newfs! I think some believe its' saying their dog isn't good enough. That's just not it at all.

 

[Sun Valley]

Actually, no, if a breeder suspects that their dogs are carriers..a simple dna test can test for the genetics for both gray AND brown. It can be avoided it they want to, by not using dogs that carry it together..

Your absolutely right Cindy. I just ordered a DNA swab today to see if my young bitch Jesse will carry the gray gene, like her Father. Even though I'm not adverse to gray or any other color allowed in the standard, I would rather not knowingly or unknowingly produce them.

Lou Ann

 

[lilly06]

Grey may be accepted but it is what the judges are looking for???? Just sayin'.

A grey is acceptable here in the U.S., although not real common. I'm not sure why a cream is not, except for the possible fact that it would be a double recessive. Since brown is a recessive already, to get a cream, it would be double recessive. IMO, breeding for double recessive COLORS in general, is not what breeders should be working towards. There are far more other things of more importance to breed for.

As far as Landseer markings on a grey and brown, they are DOUBLE recessives, given that Landseer is also a recessive. Overall, this increases the possibility of producing other, less than desirable, recessives that may not be as visible.

JMO,

 

[ardeagold]

Wonderful thread!
I hope pet owners understand why the standard is so important. It's what keeps our Newfs Newfs! I think some believe its' saying their dog isn't good enough. That's just not it at all.

Exactly. Unfortunately when people hear their PURCHASED puppy/dog doesn't meet the standard (color..or anything else), they get defensive because they LOVE their dog. But it's really important that they understand the purpose of the standard. It's to keep Newfs Newfs, in looks and in working ability.

There is no perfect Newf. Every dog, no matter how close they are to the standard, has a flaw or two. They may not be obvious flaws, but they're there.

Quality breeders are doing their best to only produce dogs that exemplify the standard.

Other, not such quality breeders, just throw two dogs they like (no matter what their lineage might be) and produce the "anything goes" version of Newfs.

I'd say the one thing that visibly shouts "poor breeding choices" to me is the structure. Newfs are supposed to be heavy boned, but so many that come from those who don't attempt to breed for the standard, aren't. Their bone is sorely lacking, gait isn't correct (they move more like retrievers than Newfs), their heads aren't wide/broad, their eyes aren't small and tight, etc.

And "looks" are only one part of the whole. If they don't look like they should...what else is going on in those genes? Is the temperament correct? Is the working ability there?

Not everything is going to be lost, of course, some may look like Newfs, but can't work. Others don't look much like Newfs but are great in the water. Some have un-Newflike temperaments, but have great coat and working ability.

The goal of quality breeders is to have it ALL. Not just bits and pieces.

It IS important for the breed itself. To maintain it as it should be. That's what all quality breeders strive for, and they put their heart and soul into it.

It's no wonder they hate to see breeders doing "less", for whatever reason. There's really no excuse for it these days. The information is at their fingertips if they want to do the right thing for the breed. DNA testing for color is available, health tests (although not perfect) are available, lineage is available on the net, titles are available (both working and conformation). Nobody has to make color "mistakes" anymore.

Too often those who breed poorly, do it for only one reason .... income. They don't spend the money that a quality breeder does (on all of the above), they don't do the research on the lines, but they DO charge an arm and a leg for a "rare" color. Heck, I've noticed that many BLACK BYB pups AND pet store pups cost the same as (or within a couple hundred dollars) the pups from the top breeders in the world. Why would that be? Because they're getting away with it.

And that's what threads like this are for. To help educate people to research better, network better, and ask the right questions, so that their NEXT Newf won't be helping to keep the breeders in business who obviously don't give a whit about the breed itself.

Nobody would ever suggest that you should look at your beloved Newf as anything except your baby/best friend/family member, no matter where it comes from. They're here. They deserve love, care, adoration, from their families as much as the most spectacular show dog.

But when you're ready to PURCHASE another pup...help the breed by supporting those who are working so hard to keep it what it's supposed to be. And help to keep those who don't care, out of the "dog business".

Of course rescue is always wonderful...we have our share here. However, notice which dogs end up there the majority of the time? Those from pet stores, BYB's, and careless people. If we could just TRY to eliminate those by choosing wisely from the beginning, there would be no market for those breeders who only breed for the money....and far fewer dogs in rescue.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

YAY Donna. Could not agree more. I did not LOVE my first, byb dog any less than any of the subsequent dogs I have had...but whether or not I like it...I created a market for someone who did not give a tinker's damn about the breed, and allowed them to continue to profit.
It's not a personal cut at anyone's dog when the standard is brought to the forefront...it's so that 30 years from now..when you go to buy a Newf..you will still be able to find this glorious breed as it should be.
And it does not mean that a dog carrying an off color as a recessive should be deleted from a breeding program..it just means that you don't use him with another dog carrying it. We USED to have to do test breedings to find out..but now we can submit..and we know. I have a male that carries gray..it's NOT recognized in Canada...so he will have to be used carefully.

 

[Annetteb]

Wonderful thread!
I hope pet owners understand why the standard is so important. It's what keeps our Newfs Newfs! I think some believe its' saying their dog isn't good enough. That's just not it at all.

I agree -- great thread

One look at my Kona and you will see that her markings are not the perfect breed standard/showing quality and assume that she did not come from a breeder with the same knowledge or commitment to details that many of you have. Like anyone else here, however we acquired our Newfs we come to love them completely. Because I have Kona I found Newf net and have learned so much more about the breed how to choose and care for these special dogs. Included in that I now know that when (not if ) I get my next Newf I will have heeded advice I have got here and choose a breeder differently.

When I post pictures or go to a Newf event at our club (and people ask where she comes from) I sometimes have a twinge of feeling that others may look down at her, but in the end I have convinced myself that she is a Newf and belongs to the "club" .

I guess this is a long way of saying thanks to those here who continually help me as a newbie learn by way of these types of threads.

Heck, I haven't trimmed her ears and was nervous about posting her birthday picture with shaggy ears after the ear trimming thread. But I took a good look at her this week and think she will look good with an ear trim. We will be doing it tomorrow.

 

[ardeagold]

Grey may be accepted but it is what the judges are looking for???? Just sayin'.

Depends on the judge and how well they know the breed standard.

 

[Henrys Mom]

The litter we are getting our puppy from has one grey male. He is gorgeous and will probably be a show dog. The breeder had a grey female that was a Champion and very much the breed standard. Since grey is an acceptable color then there should be no reason to try to avoid having them. I will try and post a picture that I took of this grey guy. He is like a little tank! My kids want him so bad!

I think if a judge knows the Newf and what it is supposed to be like, then color will be secondary to everything else. I wouldn't think it's a very good judge who discounts a dog in the show ring simply because of color if the color is of the breed standard.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

I agree -- great thread

One look at my Kona and you will see that her markings are not the perfect breed standard/showing quality and assume that she did not come from a breeder with the same knowledge or commitment to details that many of you have. Like anyone else here, however we acquired our Newfs we come to love them completely. Because I have Kona I found Newf net and have learned so much more about the breed how to choose and care for these special dogs. Included in that I now know that when (not if ) I get my next Newf I will have heeded advice I have got here and choose a breeder differently.

When I post pictures or go to a Newf event at our club (and people ask where she comes from) I sometimes have a twinge of feeling that others may look down at her, but in the end I have convinced myself that she is a Newf and belongs to the "club" .

I guess this is a long way of saying thanks to those here who continually help me as a newbie learn by way of these types of threads.

Heck, I haven't trimmed her ears and was nervous about posting her birthday picture with shaggy ears after the ear trimming thread. But I took a good look at her this week and think she will look good with an ear trim. We will be doing it tomorrow.

Hey..you can breed fabulous Landseers together and not get correct markings!

 

[ardeagold]

The litter we are getting our puppy from has one grey male. He is gorgeous and will probably be a show dog. The breeder had a grey female that was a Champion and very much the breed standard. Since grey is an acceptable color then there should be no reason to try to avoid having them. I will try and post a picture that I took of this grey guy. He is like a little tank! My kids want him so bad!

I think if a judge knows the Newf and what it is supposed to be like, then color will be secondary to everything else. I wouldn't think it's a very good judge who discounts a dog in the show ring simply because of color if the color is of the breed standard.

Yep, that's what you'd think! Because that what the standard says!

 

[PromisedLandNewf]

I agree -- great thread


When I post pictures or go to a Newf event at our club (and people ask where she comes from) I sometimes have a twinge of feeling that others may look down at her, but in the end I have convinced myself that she is a Newf and belongs to the "club" .

Nobody should look down on your Newf! That attitude is ruining relationships in our breed. Probably every breed. When I see a Newf that I know is the product of poor breeding I cringe because I feel the owner has been "taken".
Don't ever worry about markings...they really aren't too big a deal. Landseer markings are secondary to everything else.

Ditto what Cindy and Donna said too LOL.

 

[HankTheTank]

Unfortunately when people hear their PURCHASED puppy/dog doesn't meet the standard (color..or anything else), they get defensive because they LOVE their dog.

Yes we do love Henry but we did not PURCHASE him - He was a rescue. We didn't get Henry directly from the breeder so I couldn't tell you if they were breeding for the color or not. No one wanted him because his tail didn't fully develop and he couldn't be shown or bred - Does that mean he should have been put down rather than live a full and happy life with people that love him??
I understand what problems may come along with recessive genes, but to look down on a dog because of it's color just seems wrong to me.

 

[Tricia2]

Henry may not be perfect by AKC standards (few if any are) but he's perfect for you and no less a Newfie because he's a non-standard color. Really, you can stand proud as a Newf owner, anyone who has a rescue can give themselves a big hurrah.

I happen to think he is unique and has a sweet face. Don't let anyone make you feel your dog is substandard. You love him and he loves you and that is what matters.

 

[HankTheTank]

Henry may not be perfect by AKC standards (few if any are) but he's perfect for you and no less a Newfie because he's a non-standard color. Really, you can stand proud as a Newf owner, anyone who has a rescue can give themselves a big hurrah.

I happen to think he is unique and has a sweet face. Don't let anyone make you feel your dog is substandard. You love him and he loves you and that is what matters.

Thank you Tricia.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

Actually, if Henry is in the United States..He IS a standard color. Grey is recognized by the standard in the country you live in.

 

[Ginny]

Yes we do love Henry but we did not PURCHASE him - He was a rescue. We didn't get Henry directly from the breeder so I couldn't tell you if they were breeding for the color or not. No one wanted him because his tail didn't fully develop and he couldn't be shown or bred - Does that mean he should have been put down rather than live a full and happy life with people that love him??
I understand what problems may come along with recessive genes, but to look down on a dog because of it's color just seems wrong to me.

I honestly don't think anyone is putting your dog down or any individual dog for that matter. To me, this is about breeding practices and their outcomes.