Contracts

[Kodabear]

Breeders,
I'm wondering what your contract entails. Is there a generally accepted standard among most breeders in regards to contracts? Our contract on Koda was very very different from our contract with Spike. What are the most important things to you as a breeder that you feel MUST be in a contract?

We had a lawyer read over Spike's contract and he told us that we basically signed away all of our rights with this contract. He said that this contract gives the breeder the right to do anything with Spike without our consent. Regardless of the fact that we purchased him from her.

We had a very frustrating discussion with our breeder today. I wrote her to get consent for a re homing prospect, as laid out in the contract. Yet she NEVER even contacted those people(even when they tried to initiate contact multiple times with her) also, I told her they were more than willing to be bound to the contract and follow everything as laid out by it. They also have a spacious home on 5 acres with a lake. Then she told us we were not even allowed to move without her permission.

We were working on rehoming Spike because we knew it was not in his best interest to move with us to New York City. We were just trying to do what was right for Spike. All we got in return was this woman, being condescending with us, when we did everything she asked us to do as owners. I have seen where she lives, I know Spike will not be happy living there. There is barely any space for him to run around at her house. Yet she wouldn't even consider a place that had space and lots of stuff for Spike to do.

So now we will be making the drive to Colorado Springs to return him to his breeder. Sorry for ranting, if this type of contract is normal, then I guess I stand corrected. I'm just frustrated by the way she went about this. Thanks for any input.

 

[Ivoryudx]

We had a lawyer read over Spike's contract and he told us that we basically signed away all of our rights with this contract. He said that this contract gives the breeder the right to do anything with Spike without our consent.

Does this contract state what happens IF you do not do as stated in it? Contracts need to have specific, reasonable penalties spelled out if not followed, otherwise if they go to court, the court decides the penalty. If that happens, then dogs are considered property and do not have a lot of monitary value. If the contract does not have reasonable penalties, like if she is asking for a million dollars if its not followed, then it would more than likely be tossed out as being unreasonable, BUT that means court visits, etc.

If your 'breeder' is serious about the welfare of this dog, and went into this agreement honestly to stand behind it, then she would have to follow through with the reasonable offer to rehome just as you are required to follow through with returning him. I don't know if its legal to control that you can't move, I would think that as long as the dog is cared for, that would not be enforceable. Did your lawyer mention if he thought this contract would hold up in court?

I'm sorry you signed such a contract.

 

[rayt]

Lisa - I'm not a breeder (and I'm making certain assumptions based upon my recollection of your earlier threads). It's very easy for an attorney to look at a contract and say you gave up too many rights. However, that attorney may not be considering the nature of the relationship that you established by purchasing a dog from a breeder that cares about what she is doing (and isn't Spike a relatively unusual/"developmental" breed?). The attorney is looking at it as a straight contract for the purchase of goods (but we all know that a dog is not just goods even if the law says otherwise (and that is slowly changing, btw)). When you purchased Spike, you signed a contract. The breeder did not have to sell him to you and you did not have to purchase him if at the time you felt that her limitations were too onerous. From the breeder's perspective, she decided that you were the right home for Spike based upon whatever discussions you had with her. I imagine NYC was not in the picture at the time. I do not think she can prevent you from moving, but that's not the issue, here. I know that most breeders will NOT let you rehome a dog. They want the ability to make that decision. Some have rights to get the dog back if you fail to comply with any of the requirements under the contract - worming, vaccinations, fencing, etc. You signed the contract (even if you think the limitations are unreasonable now). I'm sorry that you are struggling with this. I know that you care about Spike and are trying to do what's best for him. Try to take a step back and understand that the breeder must care about him and the breed to enforce her contract and will hopefully do right by Spike. If the contract is so unreasonable that it would not stand up in court, that's a different issue (and I don't know what state law applies in this case), but if her remedy is to require the return of the dog - I'm not sure that's unreasonable given the circumstances. Maybe if you try to discuss it with the breeder again, you might have more success, but try to do that understanding her position and that while you may think she is being unreasonable, she may be just trying to protect the breed (and is as frustrated as you with the situation). Maybe, your family (I'm assuming that's where you were planning to send him) can go and meet with her? If it's a great home (and not just the best home that you can find), why would she say no? I obviously don't know what your contract says with respect to rehoming in particular. I'm certain other more knowledgeable folks will chime in and give you good advice. Good luck.

 

[mareserinitatis]

I know that my contract specifies that if, for some reason, I am unable to take care of Ada, I can't give her to anyone else but the breeder.

That being said, if you're doing everything to find a suitable home and even talking to her about it to get her blessing, the fact that she's not even considering it leads me to believe she's being a bit pissy. Are the people you're trying to rehome to willing to sign a contract with her?

 

[YorkvilleNewfie]

Reputable breeders usually will have contracts that may seem overly strict (diet limitations, agreements to lifetime supplementations, altering age requirements, rehoming requirements, grooming restrictions, fencing requirements, etc.). Every breeder I researched off of the NCA Breeders list had what I thought (at the time) were kind of unreasonable sounding stipulations, but now I know that it merely is indicative of their level of devotion to the breed as a whole and the pups as individuals. Spike's contract is probably not much different than my contract with Mila's breeder...

I'm sorry to hear that she's not trying to work with your parents though. It's a tough situation for sure.

 

[ardeagold]

Most contracts state that if the dog needs to be rehomed that the breeder has the right to approve the new home or have it returned to him/her.

Does the contract state that, or just that the dog is to be returned? Just curious.

I'm sorry this is happening to you and to Spike, but it does sound like this breeder cares a great deal about her puppies, and wants to make sure that he goes to the best home she can find for him.

I suspect that she's uncomfortable with him being allowed to live with your parents, because she's never met them or had the opportunity to build a relationship with them prior to making a decision. Also, they're in a different state, which complicates matters.

 

[newflizzie]

I'm sorry about all this for you. I am not a breeder, but I am a corporate attorney who has written contracts for breeders and rescue before.

It is a normal clause to allow the breeder to make the decision about rehoming or to take the dog back. Most courts won't find that an unreasonable clause as it's in the best interest of the dog.

Breeding and rescue contracts are often times strict (my breeder has a pretty strict contract, and frankly I'd never buy a pup from someone who didn't). But short of abuse/neglect or life altering major contractual breaks, the majority of the limiting clauses in a breeders contract won't hold up if the pup buyer has the time, money and wherewithal to go to court and challenge it. Animals are property and possession is still a strong factor. Though that's evolving a bit, it still is what it is, especially in the states where property is serious business. For instance, I have never seen a court hold up a clause limiting moving, limiting type of food, or limiting type of medical care as long as what the buyer is doing is legal.

Saying that - buyers willingly sign a contract. A reputable breeder would let the buyer have the contract ahead of time so they could review it or have an attorney review it so the buyer could walk in and sign it in good faith. A court will look at how that transpired as well and won't take it lightly if it was reviewed and signed in good faith.

I hate that you found a good home and the breeder doesn't agree (or maybe she just doesn't know them?), but it sounds like it's in good faith and in the best interest of the dog from the breeder's perspective. I know it's frustrating, and I'm so sorry.

 

[Kodabear]

Here, I will type out the stipulations in the contract on rehoming. I guess the thing I am angered about is that she never even spoke to my parents about the possibility of them adopting Spike even though they agreed to follow everything in the contract(neutering requirements food requirements etc.) Also, as far as the moving thing she stipulates(in a different section of the contract) that the breeder must approve the move or confiscate the puppy.

Rehoming/Return to Breeder:
Adopter agrees that Puppy will take residence at the above cited address provided for Adopter, and will not be placed in any other home without prior written permission of Breeder. If Adopter relocates to another permanent residence, s/he will provide new residential and mailing address to Breeder within 14 days of relocation. Adopter agrees that puppy will never arbitrarily be rehomed. If Puppy is rehomed without express written permission from Breeder, such action will be considered a breach of contract, subject to legal action and confiscation of Puppy.

Breeder agrees to take back the Puppy at any time during its life should circumstances dictate that Adopter is no longer able to maintain a suitable home or proper care for the Puppy. Should this become necessary, Adopter must contact Breeder immediately. Breeder will either take the Puppy back directly or assist in finding another suitable home for Puppy. Should Puppy be returned to Breeder, Adopter must(at Adopter's expense) have full exam performed by a licensed veterinarian to determine that the animal is free of any infectious disease or illness prior to returning the Puppy to Breeder, with the results of such exam given to Breeder prior to returning Puppy. Also these tests must be included in the exam: Parvo, Brucellosis, Heartworm, Kennel Cough, and a Fecal test. Adopter will also bear the costs involved in returning the animal to Breeder, unless otherwise agreed upon by Breeder.

Adopter guarantees that Puppy is NOT being purchased for re-sale and that the Puppy shall never be sold, bartered or given to any pet shop, puppy mill or commercial breeding facility. Such action will be considered a breach of contract subject to legal action.

 

[Kodabear]

The contract does not seem strict to me. It's the breeder who is striking me as unreasonable right now because she never even considered the option of rehoming him to my parents. She never even spoke to them. I would also like to hear from her a reason as to why she finds rehoming Spike with my parents unsuitable. If she gave me that reason I would be more understanding. She has given me nothing other than "this is what I decided."

 

[R Taft]

Have you thought about a meeting between everyone. So that everyone can discuss it and get to know one another. it might be that she is just "upset" that in her eyes you are leaving Spike and therefore has become a little unco-opertative towards you. Maybe seeing Spike with your parents might help if she can see a good relationship there.
Sometimes eye to eye contact can improve matters.
I know that when I first started to discusss my first puppy with my breeder, I thought she was difficult and hard to get on with. After our fisrt meeting we "clicked" and have been long time friends.
I just hope that this will all clear up in the best interest of Spike Ronnie

 

[Kodabear]

She wants to have him back this Thursday. She won't give us the time to have a face to face meeting. The good news is my parents are taking it well. When I spoke to my mother today, she said "Spike will end up in a good home and this means we will get to rescue a poor shelter dog who is sad and lonely." It made me feel a little bit better about the whole thing. At least a dog somewhere will benefit from this.

 

[rayt]

I'm sorry, Lisa. I do think Spike will end up in a good home. It's too bad you are not able to have a face to face meeting with the Breeder and your parents - it's easier to really get to know each other face to face and see that you are all on the same page and want what's best for Spike. I hope that you will be able to keep in touch with the Breeder so that you can hear how he's doing.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

Ok...Flame suit on here...in advance.
As a breeder...I know exactly where she is coming from. In a case like this, where Spike is admittedly a high maintenance breed (like newfs,in a way)...I suspect she has a strong preference that they go to homes that have sought out the particular breed. My feeling would be in this situation, the parents are taking the dog to keep their child happy, not because this is their "chosen" dog. Honestly? It's not an unreasonable thought process on her part. I know my mom LOVED my dogs, was happy to babysit them when I needed her to..but she was NOT interested in owning a huge hairy slobbering beast on an every day basis. Had I been forced into a position where I could NOT keep one of them..she likely would have taken the dog to keep me from being unhappy, but it would, in no way, be her "hearts desire" to have to cope with a breed that was not suited to her. Now...yes..your parents have been considering another dog anyway, but, in reality...had they ever considered contacting this breeder to get a dog like Spike? I think that's where the breeder is coming from, honestly. And for the most part, I understand her thinking.

 

[Kodabear]

No need for a flame suit. I asked for breeders opinions in this and that includes anything that may be passionate. Although, think if this was between you and I Cindy, you would at least tell me "the reason I would prefer to take Spike back is because your parents weren't specifically seeking out a Tamaskan." then I would understand. That is a perfectly logical argument. If that is, in fact, her reasoning, I get it. I guess I just wish she would be up front with me and say "this is why I would like to have him back." not just " I'm taking him back or will take legal action." sure it is in her legal right, but no need to be rude about it. I'm following everything in the contract and she should realize this is an emotional process and at least give us something to go off of.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

Hey, if she's being rude...I would likely come right out and ask her WHY she is being rude! And YES, I would for sure come right out and tell you what my feelings were on it
And why I felt it was in the dog's best interest!

 

[Pipelineozzy]

I wonder why she changed stream? cuz when you first talked to her...she seemed to be ok with it?

 

[Kodabear]

I know, at first she said " This will make rehoming Spike much easier." and then I sent her multiple emails, called her a bunch and tried to make contact with her about my parents. I gave her their contact info, and they also called her. No response. Then yesterday I got the email from her that said she wanted him back. I don't know what happened.
So now Spike will be returning to her on Thursday. My parents said " It's okay, Spike will end up in a loving home and we will save a homeless dog." if this is truly what is best for the breed, then fine. I am not a breeder so I don't know what her job entails. The aatu-Tamaskan is a rare breed and if she honestly needs him, I understand.
I could do without the attitude but as some people have mentioned this is probably an emotional time for her too. Unplanned thngs like this can be frustrating, especially if it means the Adopter/puppy thing not working out. I know she cares very much about the breed. I plan to keep contact with her even though right now is a rough patch between us. I care what happens to Spike first and foremost. I want to know where he ends up even if I never see him again. I just need to have faith that it WILL work out for Spike.

 

[Kodabear]

I'm also worried about Koda going into depression when her brother is no longer with us. Any suggestions on that? I assume she will probably stop eating for a little while. I hope she can get through this okay. I wish I could sit her down and explain why this is happening.

 

[Pipelineozzy]

Extra walks, extra time with her..some new toys...she will be fine...honest

 

[Tula]

Just my opinion, but I imagine your breeder is disappointed you are not taking Spike with you...or rather that you made plans that couldn't include Spike. I think Spike will find a good home...it is a difficult time for all of you. Kim