Child aggression--So worried and sad. (LONG!!)

SiriusBlack

New member
Hi all,
I posted on this board early on (almost a year ago) when we first got our puppy, Sirius, and then wound up finding the FB Newf Dog Owners page (which is not working right now! ugh) and I'm back today with a lot of heart break and worry and would love to get some perspective from others familiar with the breed. I'm not even sure if I'm asking anything or if I'm just rambling. Please bear with me!
Important things to know, first off:

*13 month old male
*Intact
*History of orthopedic problems (will explain)
*Working with a certified veterinary behaviorist
*Two kids (girls) in the home, ages 12.5 and 10


We have had our pup for 11 months. We know now (from joining the Newf FB page) that he came from a backyard breeder. We got him at 8 weeks.

He was always pretty excitable and mouthy, but we worked on hard on that using positive training, Ian Dunbar's training methods, two rounds of puppy classes, and a private trainer.

He was the star of his first puppy classes. SO sweet and friendly to every dog, child, or person he ever met.

He was a little too excitable, not very treat motivated, and easily distracted, but ALWAYS sweet and outgoing and never afraid of anyone. Every trainer we worked with said better to train out excitability than a fearful temperament. He was praised by everyone wherever we went. We were so proud!

(He has always been a bit of a slow learner, but I think that was mostly in his younger days. He gets things FAST now. Only a few clicks and he learns something new.)

In his first few weeks and months with us he met ALL kinds of people, but mostly kids. My kids are homeschooled and we went to the park once a week where he happily greeted everyone, or sometimes fell asleep on my lap. Toddlers would give him treats. He was SO good and gentle. Our puppy class had a contest for socialization and we got over 100 signatures in our "puppy book" of people who had met our puppy. Sirius loved it. We joked that we had an extrovert dog. Again, we were so proud!

At 4 months, he wound up with cherry eye, which we had surgically fixed the following month. He recovered well. Did not once ever snap, growl, or resist us putting drops into his little eyeball EVERY single day. Such a good puppy.

At 6 months, he started limping on his front leg. Thought it was pano, initially. When the limping got worse around month 8, we had radiographs and discovered that he had both hip AND elbow dysplasia. We were devastated. Breeder was "astonished" because she had never dealt with anything like that before. Offered to take him back, but I started to have a really bad gut feeling about her and worry that she would use him as breeding stock or re-home him, or worse.

During this time, I had about 5-6 little girls coming over each Wednesday afternoon, and Sirius LOVED them. Would sit in the yard with them, play with them inside, and of course, when he would get too rough, I would separate them. Every interaction was under supervision and none of the kids were rough with him at all.

At 9 months, he started exhibiting teen behavior, so we stepped up our training game and hired a private trainer to come over. Nothing serious, but barking at people walking up the driveway (then just licking them once they got inside) and jumping up, etc. Typical dog stuff that we wanted to address, but since he is so distracted by other dogs (loves them), we hired a trainer who would come to our house instead of doing another class.

As soon as the trainer saw him try to get up and down, she was horrified and said he looked like he was in so much pain. She taught us how to get him to settle on his mat (most valuable skill ever!), but recommended NOT training anything that required the use of his limbs until he was well. We made all kinds of appointments with surgeons and vets and scheduled a surgery for his elbows.

Also at this time, our homeschool co-op ended for the year, so the little girls stopped coming over for the summer.

At about 10-11 months, Sirius began a worrisome behavior where he would rush the baby gates when the girls were going in and out of whatever part of the house we had closed off. He would also nip them as though he was trying to get them to stay, or like maybe he wanted to be let through the baby gate. We called the trainer and she referred us to the behaviorist that works for her. The soonest appointment we could get with her, was after his surgery.

He had surgery to remove bone chips at 11 months. After surgery he was on strict crate rest. Still, he started to LUNGE at the crate door every time our kids would walk by and go into the hallway through the baby gate. He also started barking when they'd walk by.

After he was released from crate rest, he began another behavior where he would whine, lunge, and bark at the girls if they were laughing. He had NEVER done anything like this before.

Meanwhile, he was going to hydrotherapy twice a week, swimming sometimes at the lake, doing short walks as his legs permitted, and still limping badly.

Sirius also started chasing the kids and/or me, every time our parakeet would screech from the other room. Almost like it made him mad and he would try to take it out on someone else. Loud trucks, motorcycles, the hair dryer ALL elicit this response now.

The girls started making him SIT and WAIT every time they went through the baby gates and that helped a TON. He chased way less.

The behaviorist had us work on desensitizing him to the girls' laughing by clicking and treating him whenever they laughed or cried. It seemed to be going well, but one day, my husband tickled my 12 yo daughter to elicit a laugh for a training session, my daughter's leg sort of went in the air, and Sirius lunged too quickly for me and bit her on her back. Not super hard, but he did scratch her skin. (Not a deep puncture, more like a scrape.)

The first behaviorist then suggested getting in contact with a veterinary behaviorist who visits our area twice a month.

We met with Dr. Stickler (vet behaviorist) 2 weeks ago. She thinks he is a sweet dog who is noise reactive and redirecting aggression onto the kids. She thinks it is possible to manage and shape the behavior, but that he will never be 100% trustworthy around children. My heart was broken. How could this be the same sweet puppy we were all obsessed with, and who seemed to love us all so much?

Dr. Strickler thinks it could be a combination of pain and genetics--his legs hurt all the time, and it's possible that he is now showing his "true" colors/genes as an adult dog. That part breaks my heart. She prescribed Zoloft, Trazadone, and Gabapentin.

Anyway, the VERY next day (we had not started the meds yet), he was playing with a toy pretty happily in the living room and then jumped on the couch where my 10 yo was sitting reading a book. He started to get on top of her (and my husband went to grab his leash) but when she stood up to give him the down command, he barked and nipped her back. This was happening while my husband was holding the leash--the more he is restrained in these situations, the more crazy, barking, and bitey he becomes.

Dr. Stickler wants him muzzled now, all the time, and/or kept away from the kids while the meds kick in. He has been MUCH calmer on the meds, but still barking and lunging when he hears the kids go through doors in other parts of the house.

The FB group put me in touch with Carole Crawford from SENC, and she has been SO helpful. She lets me call her day or night crying about Sirius.

Still, I don't know what our future with him will be or what it could look like, realistically. We might want to have more kids. Would he be safe around them?
None of my daughters' friends are allowed to come over right now. We are all on high alert, sitting with him almost every minute (we work from home so we can do this, but it's SO stressful) and our kids are relegated to their bedroom almost 100% of the day.

We are re-training for the crate, because after he was on crate rest for the elbows, he became leery of being locked in. We are also trying to get him used to the muzzle.

I am so sad all the time. We love him SO, SO much. Brought him to the vet for a minor thing today, and he was SO well behaved, as he always is in public. Vet looked in his ears, mouth, etc., and he was such a good boy. He is good with our kids other places, too. Good at the park, at PetSmart, etc. It is at home that he flips out on them.

I keep feeling terrified that he will hurt the girls, and also terrified of losing him.
I can't imagine anyone else giving him the level of care we do or that he needs with all of his health issues.

I am so grateful that we are getting qualified help, and hoping that we see progress with meds, but also really really devastated about what this "new normal" is like with our previously sweet dog. When the girls go somewhere and come back home, he is SO happy to see them. He loves them. But then he can be so super scary with them. They are so confused and sad.

I pretty much sob myself to sleep, because he is just sleeping quietly on the floor by our bed and I want things to be different. I don't know if I am underrating or overreacting to the bites on the kids. He is nearly 13 months old, so not really "puppy" behavior anymore, and it did really seem to come out of frustration and not playfulness. We just don't know what to do, except try meds for a few weeks, train/condition, and hope that it works. I just don't know that it will.
Thank so much for listening.
 

SiriusBlack

New member
OH.. forgot to mention. Thyroid and tick-borne illness tests all came back negative/normal. Ears are fine, too.
 

Jeannie

Super Moderator
I'd also neuter him. If the meds and neuter does not work it is more important to protect your children. I'd rehome him. In some states you can be held liable if you sell or give away a dog that has a history of aggression and the dog hurts someone.
 

mcme

Member
One thing for sure, you have really been doing all you can for him. I second Jeannie's suggestion to neuter him. I know it's not ideal from a health standpoint, but it may calm him down a bit. Our first dog, a husky, was kind of a maniac. Neutering at a year really made a difference. My first Newf, also from a backyard breeder, had fear reactions. He was afraid of teenage boys, which made it problematic when my son got older and had friends over. He was good with our kids, but we decided it was best to just keep him away from other kids. We'd put him in another room when our kids had friends over. It was a pain, but doable. I hope the meds, training, and perhaps neutering make him safe around your kids. Thirteen months is still very much a puppy for a giant breed dog. If you do have to rehome him, you at least know that you did absolutely everything you could for him. You really have! I know this must be heartbreaking. I really hope this works out for you. If it doesn't, it sounds like he could do okay in a quiet all adult home. As Jeannie said, your kids' safety comes first.
 

SiriusBlack

New member
Thank you both so much. The newf people I've been in contact with have also been so helpful! One thing to mention is that he has had so many health issues that our training fell back right as he was becoming an adolescent. So I still wonder what is aggression and what is adolescent bullying or craziness that just needs better training. He doesn't have any guarding behaviors, doesn't ever growl at the kids. It's all this high pitched barking and mouthiness that gets out of control--usually when he's over stimulated. BUT the reaction to giggling is the most worrisome. Some people have theorized that he thinks the girls are in danger, because it looks like he's trying to grab them more than bite them, and we think the two times he got them, he was actually pulling on their shirts. He truly seems to enjoy their company most of the time. . I feel like we have a few more weeks of courage left in us with the basket muzzle, training, and meds before we feel all hope is lost. Behaviorist wants to wait a bit to neuter and not do everything to him all at once. Thanks again for your encouragement, it means a great deal.
 

mcme

Member
You know, as you describe it more, it does sound like puppy/adolescent behavior. Barking in your face, grabbing at clothes is common. One of ours used to run up behind us and nip us in the butt! Guarding could be part of it. Newfs do get protective if they think kids are in danger. Dublin, our 6 year old, gets very nervous when our grandchildren are in the pool. He paces and stays right near them. The funny part is he's afraid of water. (Yeah, go figure) so I don't know what he'd do if they really needed help! This boy is really lucky he got you to deal with all his issues. Good luck!
 

BlackLightning

New member
I commend you for all you have done for him. You are doing everything you possibly can. As much as we'd all like to believe that every Newf out there is that perfect "nanny dog" we've read so much about, there are a lot of Newfs out there with incorrect temperaments. There very well could be a genetic component that unfortunately is becoming more obvious as he matures and his hormone levels change.

To me, this is not normal adolescent puppy behavior. Sure, they can all act like big goofballs from time to time, but based on everything you've done and the way you are describing the situation and your fears, this is beyond puppy antics.

It sounds like you are doing everything you can and I am so heartbroken for you that you are going through this. Your children are your number one priority and if you cannot trust him around your kids he will know it through your body language, which may just make things worse. Ultimately, you will know what the right decision is for your family. I would certainly give the meds time to work and also consider discussing other med combinations with your vet if you don't see improvement.

Please do keep us posted. Hugs to you and your family and Sirius.
 

lmfoltyn

New member
I just want to encourage you to do what is best for you and him. He is a gorgeous boy. Hopefully when he is all healed up and neutered he will be more calm. Whenever ours get ear infections or spinal issues they get a bit aggressive. I hope all works for the best.
 

R Taft

Active member
I think it is great that you have asked for help form a lot of people, trainer, vet and such... good for you.

I do a lot of behaviour training and i also work with vets.... What happened to your daughter is very sad, but besides his bad behaviour,which may have been age and hormone related, it sounds like you also ended up with lead aggression in the mix. It is a very difficult situation to call from afar.

If only from reading what you have posted, I wonder if pain is in the mix.... Pain can make even the loveliest dog change their behaviour and the problem with dogs is that a short term behaviour due to say pain, can become a habit due to reaction.

Are you sure your dog is no longer in pain?

I have been training with a lot of young adults... I have found that when a behaviour is set, my positive reinforcement and negative punishments often does not work.... I by no means advise positive punishment, but I have taken to using a spray bottle,small with a strong squirt.... The fluid in it is a very strong smelly mix of essential oils mixed with water that is always carried by the people for a short time. When the dog does any behaviour like humping, jumping i teach people to spray this at their chest (dogs) towards them and firmly say just one word "off"......Like I said I work with a vet, we have tried a few things on some dogs and have now found this simple solution works well with a lot of dogs, some that were on the PTS list.... All breeds, mostly rescues

It comes to the point where the people only have to point and say "off".... I also teach people to initially spray and say "off"... but after the first time or two say "off" before the spraying, to give them a change to leave before you spray. it is very important to keep spraying to a minimum and to reward the dog when they go "off" without being sprayed. I am just suggesting this, because it has worked for us with so many dogs. It is teaching a behaviour.

That however does not solve your problem with the kids, but we have found that when we have managed to control one behaviour and given people a control word, that other behaviour often improves.....

But if pain is the underlying reason, I feel that it needs to be controlled. Dogs in pain can often just become reactive.

I hope you can sort this problem. i wished I lived closer to be able to help
 
Sorry you are going through. Dog ownership is a wonderful thing, but can be heartbreaking at the same time. There are many very experienced Newf owners on this site who can give you priceless advice on your situation. I fostered a Cane Corso named Zuma, who also had a lot of pain from elbow and hip issues. When the pain got really bad, she naturally became fearful and aggressive. I made a lot of excuses when she growled and snapped at people and I honestly thought I could help her with proper medical attention and training. It wasn't until she bit my 4 year old son while he was splashing around in the bath tub when I realized that I was putting my son in danger and setting up Zuma for failure. In my experience, the overall excitement of an active child was too much for this dog to handle when she was in so much pain. I eventually did the right thing and handed her over to a foster family without children, where she could rest and not have to deal with the stress of loud, active kids running around the house. The other foster family had way more experience with dogs displaying signs of aggression and helped Zuma fully recover. They even ended up keeping her and now have a young child of their own who gets along wonderfully with the dog. However, this experience almost ruined dog ownership for my family. My husband became leery of fostering and it took a long time for us to have a dog again. Dog ownership sometimes leaves us making very difficult and emotional decisions and you have done so much to help your pup. Whatever decision you make, know that you went above and beyond what many other dog owners would do. Hopefully, the pain meds and neutering help. However, just make sure your family is safe and that your pup is in the best possible environment to recover from all these health issues. Best of luck, you really are a wonderful dog owner.
 

SiriusBlack

New member
I have been off my laptop for the last couple of days, but I wanted to say thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and experience with me! I very much appreciate it. It was so kind of you.

I know he is in pain for SURE. That is part of what is making this so hard. It seems like nothing we have done has really helped reduce his pain level, and I feel so bad that he is feeling this way at such a young age.

The surgeon says he will most likely always limp (he now has BAD arthritis in his front right elbow), but that therapy may help. We have noticed through journaling, that he is MORE reactive after therapy and after he swims, even though he absolutely loves it at the time. So the vet behaviorist thinks it may be contributing to his pain.

Besides the limp, he has a very rough time getting up and down. He sort of drags himself around with his front legs instead of getting up to move somewhere. Once he is totally up, or when he is outside for example, he runs around and walks pretty normally.

When it's time to lie down, he kind of just slumps down on all fours at once. Not sure if this is all pain, or a newfie thing, too.

We are currently tweaking supplement levels and brands (glucosamine, probiotic, vitamin C, and golden/turmeric paste) and he is taking Gabapentin, Trazodone, and Zoloft. She does not want to start him on Rimadyl at this time.

We took a break from therapy to see if his reactivity went down--while he does seem a bit calmer, we are not sure if it is from taking a break, or from the Gabapentin. Therapy consisted of a laser type treatment on the joints, and 10-15 minutes of underwater treadmill 2x a week.

The behaviorist wants VERY limited physical activity, and I know that leads to his frustration in part. So we try to do tons of brain games with him, training new tricks that don't require the use of his limbs, and hiding treats under cups in front of him, etc., but it just doesn't feel like enough for him. I think if he were not in pain, he would be a VERY active newf and loves working (swimming and saving) very much.

We hope to discuss this on Wednesday during our weekly check in with the behaviorist. I think the next idea would be to address his hips (we have thought about stem cell therapy once we replenish the money we spent on the elbow surgery), but the behaviorist also doesn't want him going through any major medical treatment right now (also why we are putting off neutering--just while he adjusts to meds, etc.).

It's just super overwhelming, and I know this sounds dumb and obvious, but I wish I could see the future and know what the best thing is for him (and us).

Thank you again!
 

R Taft

Active member
Can i suggest proper dog puzzles......when my super high energy newf had to have surgery and a long spell on no training, she loved them and they kept her sane..... Nina Ottenson is her name and she has many different ones. we have seven. And now when it rains and Urshie suffers from cabin fever we use them all the time.

Stem Cell Therapy seems to be working well on a lot of dogs here in Australia... the Guide dogs for the blind association is using it on their older dogs and it is not a major surgical type procedure.... more a series of injections
 

SiriusBlack

New member
Yes! My newf mentor (Carole from SENC rescue) recommended the Nina Ottoson games. He has a purple UFO/pie thing that he loves right now. She also recommended nosework, which I know he would love, because I feel like he is a particularly nosey pup. Nose is always to the ground smelling for stuff! The vet behaviorist says to wait even on that until his pain levels are lower, but I'm really looking forward to trying that. He seems a natural at it and he's also been a terrific swimmer, wanting to save us (and trying to) from the moment he got in the water. He just wants a job SO bad, so I feel terrible about his pain. Really hoping we can dial that in before any more habits are formed and praying we can work through his reactivity. We love him so much!
 

victoria1140

Active member
Try adding microlactin to your mix as helps with joint problems.l use the capsules with msm and hyraulonic acid for my mum's dog plus gwf joint formula though l but the horse one as cheaper and more of it.

Also hemp oil
 

SiriusBlack

New member
Things are looking so bleak. I know we are doing everything we can, and we are working with an amazing and very qualified veterinary behaviorist. I have also been in contact with several newf experts and feel very supported during this hard time.

Sirius's noise reactivity to trucks and our bird has gone way down, but his reactivity to our 10 year old has gone way up. It's like he's reached a baseline of being *somewhat* calm, but the aggressive spikes are higher, if that makes sense. He just switched from Zoloft to Luvox since the Zoloft didn't seem to be helping. We are also upping his gabapentin for pain.

We haven't even begun desensitizing him with the girls around because his threshold for them and for noise is so low right now an he can't handle it. Behaviorist wants a baseline of calm before we really work with him. She also wants his pain reduced before he can take up his normal walks and other activities.

I know he is bored and in some pain, but he truly has been in pain his whole puppy life, and the turn on our child was so sudden over the summer when they seemed to enjoy a really sweet relationship previously, that it leaves us all feeling really confused and traumatized. He is clear of all thyroid or tick borne illnesses.

Could bad genetics/breeding cause this dramatic of a shift in adolescence? We have him muzzled now. It's so sad and scary. Behavorist wants MAJOR change with the new medication shift in the next 4 weeks or so, and at that point, she feels like we will have exhausted all resources.

I really don't feel like it's looking good, but I also love him so much. He looks so crazy here, but he is so sweet and loving much of the time, and it feels like jekyll and hyde. I cry every single day.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lefzvnx5aklqi30/SiriusClipOct6.MOV?dl=0
 

Angela

Super Moderator
Ask the behaviourist about giving him Melatonin 5 MGM daily. I have a 4 year old on it for behaviour problems, though nothing as severe as you are describing. So sorry this is all happening.
 

Kimkc

New member
What a heart breaking situation. I'm new to Newf ownership, and reading your story and now seeing this video makes me so incredibly sad. You and your family are amazing for doing all that you can to help and I believe most people would have given up by now. We adopted a dog a few years ago (a lab/pit mix) and though he was very sweet to my children, he was not to their friends. We worked with the vet and a trainer and after two documented bites (and quarantine) we talked to the rescue about our options. Sadly, because of the bites they said the only option was to euthanize him as he was unadoptable. We took him to our vet and loved him until the end. It was a very traumatic time for our family and a hard life lesson. I can't imagine all the stress, fear and anxiety you are feeling. Whatever you decided to do, know that it will be the right one. Praying for you and your family <3
 

victoria1140

Active member
Have you also tried to see if it's a colour or type of clothing issue as l knew a dog that reacted to grey tops .

Keep persevering if you can but it's hard when they are in pain and reacting.
 

R Taft

Active member
Ask the behaviourist about giving him Melatonin 5 MGM daily. I have a 4 year old on it for behaviour problems, though nothing as severe as you are describing. So sorry this is all happening.
This is working on a few dogs I am working with..... I know I sound repetitive, but I think pain, especially if he has had pain for a long time will have a lot to do with the behaviour problems....

I also work with people and people in constant pain and especially over long period have times of complete intolerance of anything and small things will set them off.... Dogs are no different, any living creature, even horses.

Sometimes we have to make choices for safety and also because the life they live is not the best anymore.

I am so sorry you are having to deal with this, it is very tough and sad. You are doing more and trying harder than a lot of people have. :hugs:
 

SiriusBlack

New member
Thanks again, everyone. THe comments here have encouraged me greatly and I have read them all! We sent our behaviorist several recent videos and her assessment this morning is that she is not seeing anything antagonistic or intentionally aggressive. She thinks he is a very young dog displaying very inappropriate attention seeking behavior. Some of it is reactivity. We have been using a basket muzzle so he can spend more time with the girls. We had to separate them initially, but the dr. thinks that is now creating frustration for him because he is intensely a people dog. We are not our of the woods by any means, but the conversation today was hopeful. Please continue to keep us in your thoughts and prayers! Will continue to update as well. Thanks, all.
 
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