Back to Basics/Breed-specific feeding

Nutz4Newfs

Inactive Member
I feed my pups Back to Basic and will continue to do so as they love it.
Their is a book written by a vetinarian of 26 years who TOTALLY disagrees with the Vitamin C thing. His name is Wendell O Belfield and the title is How To Have A HEalthier Dog. He is a HUGE advocate of Vitamin C supplements and explains in detail in his book about WHY he is (including MANY personal cases where Vitamin C changed the quality of lives for dogs especially with HD)
I would recommend this book to any dog owner AND there are only 2 dry foods that he would use (if he had to) and one is Back to Basics.

Maria
PS if anyone would like the link to his site let me know
 

sarnewfie

New member
Well even though i feed vit c in the scorbate form, i do not have ALL the faith that it TOTALLY eliminates CHD in pups that come from moms that were supplimented while preggy, sorry, i have known of many who have followed this protical, and still have one or two pups that may end up with mild CHD, one of wich is from our first litter.
though i do suppliment and believe it helps, it is not foolproof.
 

sarnewfie

New member
Like you said way to many variables i did not load her up on vit c, but gave her a bit more than normal, i am totally confidant that her diet of raw hamburger, her dog food and other things like veggies etc, were sufficient for the support of the pups, though i have never and will never own a 180 lb newf, i still believe the 2 cups a day and 1/2 can of food plenty to support the joints and ligaments and i believe in the old days of newfs, they also did not weigh in at 180 lbs, but were much different looking, and i bet they ate a lot of raw fish in their day.
 

caroanne

Inactive Member
Well since I started this thread I guess I'll jump back in
now first off I just wanted to say that I did not post the article to be confrontational, just as I've been doing a lot of dietary research lately I thought I'd share my findings, whatever they might be. I don't feel I know enough yet nor have any experience to really "take sides." So-- please no one take offense!

Second I just wanted to say please please I think everyone should read this article, I posted it under "dietary article" but I guess I should have made it more interesting. It's called Relationship of Nutrition to Developmental Skeletal Disease in Young Dogs.

Here's the link again:
http://www.ilovemypet.com/jackart.html

It's a veterinary science study article. Basically it's about the link between what you feed your dog and hip dysplasia.

I'll summarize because it's VERY scientific and a little hard to understand. Please note that the below is a SUMMARY of the veterinary article, not my own stuff! and I'm not trying to lecture, just putting out the info! Again I have no personal experience, just sharing the knowledge.


"Relationship of Nutrition to Developmental Skeletal Disease in Young Dogs" by Daniel C. Richardson & Phillip W. Toll

1. Calories. Limit the number of calories your dog eats and make sure he stays lean. (We all know this.) BUT here's the important part: because fat has TWICE the calories than either carbs or protein, it's REALLY important to make sure that the fat percentage is low in the foods you're feeding.

The PROTEIN level is not as important as the FAT level when feeding your giant-breed puppy.

2. Protein (this is CONTROVERSIAL). "Unlike other species, protein excess has not been demonstrated to negatively affect calcium metabolism or skeletal development in dogs. Protein deficiency, however, has more impact on the developing skeleton." (emphasis added) He goes on to list a study using Great Dane puppies; feeding 14.6% protein led to negative developmental consequences.

The article goes on to say that growing puppies need at least 22% protein (EVEN giant-breed puppies).

3. Calcium. The article has a very technical section on the right amount of calcium. It includes statistics, test results, etc. But I'm going to try and keep it simple so:

"Young, giant-breed dogs fed a food containing excess calcium (3.3% dry matter basis)... had significantly increased incidence of developmental bone disease... chronic high calcium intake increased the frequency and severity of osteochondrosis." (emphasis added)

The article says DO NOT switch a puppy to a maintenance food to try to prevent excess calcium intake because since puppies need more calories than adults, they'll end up eating more of the adult dog food and then end up with even MORE calcium!

Also: "'...the feeding of calcium supplements not only is unnecessary, but, in fact, contraindicated!'"

4. Vitamin C. "Even though Vitamin C has been recommended, the relationship between Vitamin C and developmental skeletal disorders in dogs such as osteochondrosis and hip dysplasia is unproven." The article does list specific test findings that led them to that conclusion.

5. Vitamin D. Vitamin D regulates skeletal development. "Commercial pet foods contain from two to 10 times the AAFCO recommended amounts of Vitamin D... supplementation with Vitamin D can markedly disturb normal skeletal development." NO EXTRA VITAMIN D BESIDES WHAT IS ALREADY IN YOUR DOG FOOD!

6. Canine hip dysplasia. Technical section here. Basically, even the first 2 weeks of feeding is important in relation to CHD, with 3-8 mos. being very important and the first 6 mos. critical. And: "Limiting food intake in growing Labrador Retriever puppies has been associated with less subluxation of the femoral head and fewer signs of hip dysplasia." (emphasis added)

7. Osteochondrosis (OCD). "In dogs, risk factors for OCD are age, gender, breed, rapid growth and nutrient excesses (primarily calcium). All large and giant-breed dogs are at increased risk for OCD. Great Dane, Labrador Retriever, Newfoundland, and Rottweiler breeds are at highest risk. Males have an increased risk of OCD in the proximal humerus but gender relationships are not found with OCD involving other joints."

The article says overnutrition can be an important cause of OCD. Do NOT over-supplement!

8. Conclusion.

"Nutritionally, rate of growth, food consumption, specific nutrients, and feeding methods influence our ability to optimize skeletal development and minimize skeletal disease. Maximizing the growth rate in young, growing puppies does not correlate to maximal adult size. It does, however, increase the risk of skeletal disease. The growth phase of 3 to 8 months, and possibly the phases before weaning, are vital to ultimate skeletal integrity. The large and giant breeds may be limited in their ability to cope with excesses of minerals such as calcium.


Overnutrition from overconsumption and oversupplementation increases the frequency of developmental bone disease in large and giant-breed dogs. Energy and calcium are the nutrients of greatest concern. Often, owners feeding highly palatable, energy-dense growth foods switch to maintenance type foods in an attempt to reduce developmental disorders. As shown earlier, this practice may worsen total calcium intake. It is not only important to feed the appropriate food, but to feed the food appropriately.


Table 1 lists the minimum requirement of some nutrients of concern for growing puppies. These values represent the minimum and in some cases the maximum AAFCO recommendations for these nutrients. Foods for large and giant-breed puppies should meet these recommendations. Because energy [read: calories] (primarily from fat) and calcium are nutrients known to be risk factors for developmental skeletal disease, the level of these nutrients [calories & calcium] should be near the minimum requirement. Meeting but not exceeding the requirement for these nutrients ensures proper growth while minimizing risk factors for skeletal disease.


Nutritional management alone will not completely control developmental bone diseases. Skeletal diseases can be influenced during growth by feeding technique and nutrient profile. Dietary deficiencies are minimal concern in this age of commercial foods specifically prepared for young, growing dogs. The potential for harm is in overnutrition from excess consumption and oversupplementation." (emphasis added)

Wow, that was long. Again, this isn't my stuff, this is a summary of a highly-referenced scientific article by two veterinarians (listed above), so please do not get mad at me!
Just trying to get ready for my new puppy. Also I would love anything you guys with personal experience would have to add because, like they say, "the more you know!"


Hope this was helpful.

Caroline


[This message has been edited by caroanne (edited 05-28-2002).]

[This message has been edited by caroanne (edited 05-28-2002).]
 

caroanne

Inactive Member
P.S. I think that with only a few cups of dog food you can get all the nutrients, these super-premium dog foods are very nutrient-dense. More food is just more poop if you're using a good dog food, and also-- there are dangers in overnutrition! IMHO and the article I summarized...
 

caroanne

Inactive Member
and back to the breed-specific feeding thing...

The reason I brought up William D. Cusnick is because of his ideas on breed-specific feeding. The theory is to try and feed the dog what it has historically been raised on and therefore what its body has been adapted to eating.

This is what he says in his book, about feeding Newfoundlands:

"Nutritional studies of the Newfoundland showed a very high requirement for the fat soluble vitamins A-D-E per kilogram of body weight. However, for this breed these vitamins must come from the proper source. For example, Newfoundland dogs show a very low assimilation rate for vitamin A derived from beta carotene, usually found in carrots or vegetables. Yet vitamin A from fish liver oil or in a palmitate form has a much higher rate of assimilation for the Newfoundland.

Nutrients in the Newfoundland's native environment consisted primarily of cold water white fish such as cod, halibut, and herring. Any exposure to meat would have been from caribou (which has an amino acid profile similar to that of horse meat) and bear (which has an amino acid profile similar to that of pork).

For a Newfoundland I recommend you use blends containing fish, pork, poultry, and lamb. The food should have a high fat content. I also advise you to avoid foods made with beef and soy or any food having a protein content over 30 percent or a high fiber content from oats, beets, or wood pulp." (emphasis added)

He lists his credentials on his website, he's some type of nutritionist/researcher I think. I don't know how I feel about him & what he says. But it's interesting, and I understand the part about feeding the dog the way its ancestors would have been fed.

He makes a big deal about feeding vitamins and minerals from the proper source. Here is what he says about Newfs:

Vitamin & Best Source
Vitamin A: Palmitate
Vitamin B-1: Thiamine Hcl & Yeast
Vitamin B-2: Riboflavin & Yeast
Vitamin B-6: Pyridoxine Hcl & Yeast
Vitamin B-12: Cyanocobalamin & Yeast
Vitamin D: D-activated Sterol
Vitamin E: dl-alpha tocopherol acetate
Niacinamide
Biotin
Folic Acid
d-Calcium Pantothenate
Para Amino Benzoic Acid

Mineral & Best Source
Calcium: Oyster Shell & di-cal phos
Copper: Copper-Gluconate
Iodine: Sea Kelp
Iron: Ferrous Fumerate
Magnesium: Magnesium-Gluconate
Manganese: Manganese-Gluconate
Phosphorus: Oyster Shell & di-cal phos
Potassium: Potassium-Gluconate
Zinc: Zinc-Gluconate

Again this is taken from William D. Cusnick's website http://home.att.net/~wdcusick/Newfoundland.html

He does not recommend any commercial dog foods out there, he says the best thing is home feeding.

Just more of my research...

[This message has been edited by caroanne (edited 05-28-2002).]

[This message has been edited by caroanne (edited 05-28-2002).]
 

sarnewfie

New member
it was recently discovered that lamb and turkey are low in taurine, a neccesary amino acid, so i stay away from these two ingredients,.
good article, but i will continue to feed my wysong synorgen, and give veggies, and canned fish, and keep my newfs lean as i always have.
thanx for posting!
 

caroanne

Inactive Member
Great feedback-- what do you all think about the nutrition/CHD article by the two vets? Especially the protein level part? Some things I've read say stick to low protein levels for large/giant-breed puppies, this and others say ALL puppies even large/giant-breed puppies need at least 22%... I'm confused.

Also that article (the scientific study one, NOT Cusick) says feed growth/puppy food, others say feed maintenance/adult food... what do you think? I mean after reading that article ("Relationship of Nutrition...").

And finally... do you know of a brand of dog food that has Vitamin A palmitate in it, or any of the minerals in the gluconate form? I've found some supplements, but no dog food as of yet.

Oops one more... and if large/giant-breed puppies are supposed to eat diets low in fat but Newfoundlands are supposed to get high-fat diets...?!

What do you think?

Sarnewfie I agree, I never liked lamb or turkey for some reason but now that I know about the taurine maybe that's why
and Karen thanks for the link, I'm going to go read Belfield now. I agree about home cooking but I'd prefer to use a good feed and then add in raw etc. foods as I can (since I can barely even cook for myself!)

I guess the conclusion I've come to is to feed your dog the way you would feed yourself (ideally
) for example we wouldn't live off health bars only now, no matter how high quality?
that's "food for thought!" (oh, a bad joke) LOL

Thanks all--Caroline

[This message has been edited by caroanne (edited 05-28-2002).]
 

sarnewfie

New member
Caroline
i prefer to stick with a dog food that is tried and true, i have slow growth with my pups on the wysong synorgen, it crumbles apart when you do the kibble test, soaking the kibble in warm water for 20 minutes, where all other brands swell like sponges.
i also like the way, i NEVEr have them puke this food up as i have had them do on pro plan, purina one, and other brands i have tried, i like the fact that the protein level seems to be just right for these guys.
i also like the fact, this company does not constantly switch the formula, they also do not use the latest fad words and catchy phrases to sell their food.
the food comes in 8 lb bags in a 40 lb box, is affordable, and i also mix the canned meat into it made by wysong.
it is up to all of us as individual to decide what is best for our pets, good articles bythe way
 
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