American breeders VS International breeders??

[BreezyNewf]

Hi, I have a question. Someone told me that American breeders have made the Newf smaller and International breeders have kept the large breed standard. Is this true? I got my baby from an American breeder. Does that mean she wont be as big or that she is not a "true" newf? I love her regardless of her size...I'm just curious. The person said that American breeders have strayed away from what the newf should be. I love my American breeder. She is amazing and wonderful with her Newfies. I'm just so curious as to why this person believes this way.

 

[ardeagold]

I don't know what country or countries she was referring to, but it's not the case with the dogs I've seen from European lines. Perhaps other countries do have much larger Newfs, but larger isn't necessarily healthier. In fact, the opposite is often true.

If you look at the pedigrees of dogs from reputable European breeders, you'll find that they're mixed with the lines of reputable US breeders and vice versa. The pedigrees will often have dogs from both continents (and various countries) for generations back.

Both of our boys, Frankie and Cole, have many dogs from the US and Europe in their pedigrees.

Cole was born here in the US, but even though his parents are both from a European kennel, he's not a totally European dog. There are a lot of US dogs in his lineage. His sire isn't a huge dog, but Cole is a bit larger than the "average" breed standard dog in the US. He's larger than his European sire, and most of the males on both sides of his European lineage. That particular kennel has some wonderful dogs, but none are overly large.

Frankie's parents are both from the US. However, his one grandsire is from Europe. In fact, that grandsire is Cole's sire (making Cole Frankie's great-uncle). There are a lot of US and European lines in Frankie's pedigree as well, on both sides. However, Frankie will be larger than Cole (who's not a small Newf), which comes from his US genes, and not his European genes. His parents are both larger than average Newfs.

There is a breed standard here in the US that breeders strive to achieve. Breed Standards are determined by the parent breed club. In this case, it's the Newfoundland Club of America (NCA).

In the breed standard, there are average and approximate height/weight guidelines, not absolutes like there are with some breeds (like Golden Retrievers). There is some variance in size allowed...depending on genetic makeup. I've seen some smaller Newfs and some larger ones, and some right in the middle. But most are close to the breed standard, which is the goal.

Here is the "size" section as outlined in the breed standard. "Height" is from the top of the shoulder (withers) to the ground. Cole is larger than the "average". He's about 29" high (an inch taller than the "average") and weighs 152 (two pounds heavier than the "average"). But the average is the middle...not the complete range.

The most important thing in relation to size, is the phrase that I have highlighted in red:

Size, Proportion, Substance

Average height for adult dogs is 28 inches, for adult bitches, 26 inches. Approximate weight of adult dogs ranges from 130 to 150 pounds, adult bitches from 100 to 120 pounds. The dog's appearance is more massive throughout than the bitch's. Large size is desirable, but never at the expense of balance, structure, and correct gait. The Newfoundland is slightly longer than tall when measured from the point of shoulder to point of buttocks and from withers to ground. He is a dog of considerable substance which is determined by spring of rib, strong muscle, and heavy bone.

Here's the whole NCA breed standard which gives a description of the "perfect" Newf by NCA (US) Standards:

http://www.ncanewfs.org/standard.shtml

Also you might find this interesting. It's the illustrated guide so that you can see how the breed standard applies:

http://www.ncanewfs.org/publications/illustratedguide/illusguidecontents.html

Your girl has a LONG way to go before she grows up. Most Newfs take approximately 3-4 years to reach their full adult size and begin to really LOOK like a Newf. Plus, they go through many strange looking/gangly/odd growing stages before they get there. As long as she's healthy, you trust and have a good relationship with her breeder, and you love her, that's all that matters. Not all look the same. What they look like depends on their parents and their genes. If you've seen her parents, you already have an idea of what she'll look like. So don't worry about size, weight, etc...or about what "someone" says...just enjoy your girl. Hopefully you two will have many many wonderful years together.

 

[Cascadians]

I have a European male Newf. He's not as big as some full grown male Newfs I've seen but he's plenty big enough! What is important is health, movement, gait.

When I was looking for a puppy I was warned that in some lines that have not worked their dogs for generations, the water instinct may not be as strong as those dogs that have been actively worked generation after generation. I really wanted a sure-fire water dog so looked for that and health primarily. Seen too many dogs who cannot walk / run well, know bone / joint health is paramount, also general health.

Last weight 138 pounds, very solid muscular strong dog. Doing lots of sports. When you're training a Newf, in the water, pulling, grooming, doubt you'll be thinking "just not big enough." Ha! More like Geeze this beast is behemoth!

My boy Orka is genetically loaded with spectacular working and water genes, but just started swimming. He's been fussy and cautious. But whoa what a swimmer! Last night as he crossed a fast cold wide river many times in front of crowds, weaving among countless watercraft (no motors on), ppl were exclaiming what a fantastic swimmer he is, how strong, tireless, enthusiastic. His gait is aristocratic, leonine; he is a striking dog even though in lopsided teenager phase and not yet "standard" proportions. Even if he never is perfect standard wise he is a gorgeous spunky wild expressive dog who has completely changed my life for the better.

Look at the pedigrees and yes you'll see traveling dogs, hopping across the pond. Or, these days, their sperm

 

[YorkvilleNewfie]

Does that mean she wont be as big or that she is not a "true" newf? I love her regardless of her size...I'm just curious. The person said that American breeders have strayed away from what the newf should be.

Honestly, if you look through the earliest photographs of Newfs and the (even eariler paintings of Newfs by Landeer (after they were brought over to Europe where they were bred to be larger and have more coat than their original Canadian counterparts at the time), Newfs were actually smaller dogs than they are now. Less coat with finer bones and narrower heads. So if you want to be technical, Breezy is more "True Newf" than my heavy coated, blocky-headed huge girl.

Oh, and I got my Mila from an American breeder. At 17 months she's 130 pounds and still growing, which is most certainly outside of the standard for a female and not necessarily for the better.

And also what everyone else says...my girl's grandsire was a German import and looking at various breeders during my search there were dogs from France, Germany and the UK in several lines. It's a big mish-mash out there.

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

I can't imagine who would have said that to you. She obviously seems to like some European lines, but to make a blanket statement like is a little short sighted. Different lines in any country can look different depending on the breeding. If someone wants a certain look or body type, etc. that is the kind of breeder one should look for. Many US lines are bred with European and visa versa. Just because a dog lives in the US or Europe does not mean it was bred in that country of from that country's lines.

 

[BreezyNewf]

Thank you all so much!!! I'm so, so grateful for you all. I need not worry any longer what this person told me Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

 

[Social]

To me, it is true that most European newfies look different then American newfies. (not including those bred with European lines). Do you know your dogs lines? How much research did you do on your puppies lines before buying?

 

[Sound Bay Newfs]

Do you know your dogs lines? How much research did you do on your puppies lines before buying?

The is the problem with new newf owners and mostly pet owners, is that they do not know how to research pedigrees and lines. So most of the time pedigrees are just names.

 

[Social]

The is the problem with new newf owners and mostly pet owners, is that they do not know how to research pedigrees and lines. So most of the time pedigrees are just names.

Oh I agree 100%!
Well said

When Breezy said she was worried about her dog not being a "true newf" I wondered if this wasent a "new to pedigree" type situation. I know what my pup should look like at any given stage, it wouldn't matter what "someone told me". I also know about any health issues present in my lines. Breezys newf May be on the small side or the large side, it's too hard to know without seeing a pedigree. Her pup may also have a wide range of medical issues, again too hard to gauge without knowing the lines.

 

[ardeagold]

The is the problem with new newf owners and mostly pet owners, is that they do not know how to research pedigrees and lines. So most of the time pedigrees are just names.

True. And too often if there are one or two Champions in the 5 generation pedigree shown to them by the breeder...they're told their dog is from "Championship lines". Um...no. They're from lines that have a CH or two in them (usually several generations removed).

The problem with that is that they see current photos of CH Newfs and wonder why their dog doesn't look like the dogs in the pictures.

It takes a LONG time, a lot of study and a lot of experience to know the dogs in any one line, much less many lines. Reputable breeders who have been breeding for decades know a great deal about virtually every dog in every reputable line in existence. I sure don't. I still have a hard time connecting the call names with the registered names, but AM getting better. Knowing the health, structure, size, temperament, gait, teeth, tail, etc etc in those lines is still beyond me. However, talk to a reputable breeder who's been around for a long time and they can tell you virtually everything about every dog...going back 5+ generations off the top of their heads. It amazes me.

 

[Sun Valley]

Lynne is right...but there are numerous breed books and Newf Tide can be bought without being an NCA member and both of these will have pictures of many dogs people have in their pedigree's.

I have been to Europe a few times and to their shows and I can tell you that just like here in the US you will see different 'type' and different sizes. We all deal with the same health problems and hopefully, all strive to produce nice healthy sounds dogs.

LA

 

[Social]

I think I know what lines Breezy came from, and she may not be very "typey" in the end, I can't tell if the op is wondering about structure or just size. There is quite a lot going into the newfies you see in shows, breeding of course! But there is so much more then just having a well bred dog. Your pup probably will never look like a "European show dog" maybe that is what whoever told you whatever they said ment?

 

[nsmarlis]

Just wondering what a European show dog looks like. I've read the German, Can. & US standard - seem pretty much the same to me.

 

[ardeagold]

Just wondering what a European show dog looks like. I've read the German, Can. & US standard - seem pretty much the same to me.

Yep. Breeders should attempt to produce puppies that meet the standard as closely as possible. Show dog or not. That's the reason it exists.

 

[BLCOLE]

My first Newf, Zeus, came from a very well known Newf breeder here in the US. She happens to have a client in France who does VERY, VERY WELL showing an AMERICAN Newf with AMERICAN lines in Europe.

One of these American dogs was the top rated Newf in France for almost two years, so I believe the person who was talking to the op was "blowing smoke" at best...

 

[BreezyNewf]

Well, the breeder I bought her from is very knowledgeable. And she does have her dogs tested for heart, joint and other things before breeding and gives certificates showing that. And only gives out partial registration because she doesnt want buyers to breed her pups but Breezy is an exception because my 12 yr old wants to show her Not that I will ever breed her! Got six kids of my own and I'm done with babies....two and four legged.
I just asked the question...not to shed a bad light on my breeder (shes wonderful and always just a phone call away) but because that one person was basically saying hers were better quality and Breezy was just not up to show standards.
And yes, I do have her lines....and very nice lines they are

 

[ardeagold]

Well, the breeder I bought her from is very knowledgeable. And she does have her dogs tested for heart, joint and other things before breeding and gives certificates showing that. And only gives out partial registration because she doesnt want buyers to breed her pups but Breezy is an exception because my 12 yr old wants to show her Not that I will ever breed her! Got six kids of my own and I'm done with babies....two and four legged.
I just asked the question...not to shed a bad light on my breeder (shes wonderful and always just a phone call away) but because that one person was basically saying hers were better quality and Breezy was just not up to show standards.
And yes, I do have her lines....and very nice lines they are

Just a question...is your breeder a "show breeder"? Is she going to mentor you through the show process? It IS a process, and it's something you do need a mentor for. If your breeder isn't local to you, perhaps you could find a mentor who is local through your closest regional Newf Club.

I ran into that issue. Cole's breeder isn't close, geographically, so at Cole's first show, Lou Ann Lenner introduced herself to me, evaluated Cole, shared her thoughts with his breeder (she could discuss things intelligently, whereas I had NO clue), helped me find an awesome handler for him, and has been there for me if I have a question...and I've had many. My breeder can answer many of my questions, but there are some things she didn't know because she's not familiar with my region, at all.

Frankie is my second "show dog" (or it looks like that will be the case so far), and I know enough that I could "go it alone" this time. (His breeder is also quite a distance away...2 days drive, in fact). I'll use the same handler, and know most of the show venues, the sites, hotels in the area, and even some of the judges (there are judges that I won't show to...not many but a couple). These are some of the things I didn't know the first time around, nor did my breeder (geographical, again).

If Lou Ann didn't befriend me, no doubt I'd still be stumbling around not knowing what I'm doing...and Cole wouldn't have been a CH after such a short period of time. Showing is expensive...and you want to have as much knowledge and "finish" your dog as quickly as possible, or honestly, you could go broke by showing hither and yon for years and still not have that CH that you're hoping for.

Where we live, there is ONE show a year that's in our backyard. All of the others are at LEAST 3 hours away (one way), and most are 4+. That means that for a two, three, or four day show cluster, we have to stay in a hotel. They're too far to commute.

Also..you need to find a good show groomer, or learn how to do it yourself. Unless you're good with cutting "hair" (just have that innate talent), and can look a photos and other show dogs and figure it out, you need someone to teach you. AND, you need equipment.

And...do you know how to enter shows? Where to find show information? What classes to put your girl into?

These things, and so many more, all are integral to showing your dog. If your breeder isn't a show breeder, you might want to start going to shows, join your local Newf club (if you're not already a member), and begin to prepare yourself, and your dog, for what's to come! A mentor, hopefully your breeder, is invaluable when your dog enters that ring. You want her to be at her BEST, every time, from head to toe. How to do that isn't something you learn overnight. It takes time...lots of time...and someone who's willing to help you and cheer you on, as you go.

If your daughter wants to show your dog, she'll need handling classes so that both she and the dog shine. Once again, having somebody help her every step of the way will give her that confidence and the edge she needs.

 

[nsmarlis]

That is wonderful advice from Donna & should be heeded by anyone interested in having a fling with showing. I was lucky in that a breeder gave me a retired show dog & I had my little fling. : I would like to add that there is nothing so special as watching your pooch show well in the ring, or in working events either. And what a wonderful hobby for your child to embark on. Keep us posted.

 

[CMDRTED]

Tiggers grandfather come from Germany. His dad came from the US to provide swimmers, lots of US and European lines are interwoven.

 

[BreezyNewf]

Yes, she is our mentor. And Bekah will only be going through the Junior classes for kids. And she doesnt need to travel. The AKC club here will teach her here and hold shows here and a few hours away once or twice a year. They start them off slow and give them a taste of what its really like