AKC Rules Trump ADA Laws

NewfieGirl01

New member
I'd like to share this with you guys.

It was a sad day for a friend of mine who tried to attend an AKC event as a spectator accompanied by her service dog (well behaved, trained, and wearing his vest).

I'm aware of the AKC's view on prong collars, but the law protects the disabled individuals rights.

In addition to what is in the article, my friend was asked "what type of service dog he was and whether I had any identification for him"

Legally the only two questions should be:
(1) Is the dog a service animal required because of a disability and (2) What work or task has the dog been trained to perform.

Please share your opinion after reading the article.

http://guidinggolden.wordpress.com/2012/11/24/akc-event-protocol-vs-the-ada
/
 

Angela

Super Moderator
Before I knew that prong collars were forbidden at AKC events I was repremanded by an official at an AKC obedience trial for having a prong collar OUTSIDE the ring. I knew I couldn't have the Newf wearing it in the ring but thought I would just take it off before entering.
I was told I could be removed from the show :(
(Stupid Canadian, eh!!)

My question would be, why was the prong collar needed on a service dog if it was"well behaved, trained and wearing its vest"?
 

Whybu1

New member
AKC might want to get a good lawyer ready. The federal disability act is not open to discussion from those who don't like it. I have a friend who is an animal trainer for a local zoo and although they really do not like the 2 question limit they are bound by it. Why the dog has a prong collar, what condition the person has or what specific function the dog performs are all irrelavant in accordance with the law.
 

NewfieGirl01

New member
Here's an update:
http://guidinggolden.wordpress.com/2012/11/25/akc-protocol-vs-the-ada-update/


I don't know why a prong collar is part of his working equipment but I've seen several service dogs use prong collars as part of their every day working equipment as well.

I don't know if it's just an added security blanket or what.

I've met both her and her dog several times and I have to tell you, her dog is an angel.

She participates in the "dog world" and has a lot of supporters behind her, both people who show, enter agility, and in the service dog "world" and many are telling her a lawsuit is the way to go.

She, however, would just rather see something done on behalf of the AKC's part to better inform the staff, judges, etc of the ADA laws so that something like this never happens again.

She has stated to us that if an answer is not given and she is ignored, she will have her voice be heard, rightfully so.

I'll post back with updates. Keep the comments coming.



It's obvious my stand on this.

I know of the AKC no prong collar rule, I personally disagree with it but I respect it. But when it comes to a service animal the ADA Law and respect for the person with the disability comes first.

(I thought I heard it wasn't too long ago where prong collars were allowed in conformation? no clue if that's true),
 

ElvisTheNewf

Active member
So wait, did they actually kick her out or just rudely question her? If they didn't actually make her leave or force her to remove the collar, there's probably nothing to be done. Rude people are everywhere.
 

NewfieGirl01

New member
As far as I heard, she was told to remove the collar or she would be asked to leave.

She was not going to remove the collar and after being rudely questioned and told the same thing by 2 judges, she spoke to the AKC agility rep and was told the same thing.


"Mr. Mackintosh stated that he “knew the [ADA] law and didn’t like it” He then suggested that I leave, stating that I am also welcome to stay and “disrupt the show with my prong collar” but that I should expect to be harassed about using it. "

That's when she left.

I may be wrong, but just the way she was treated could potentially be grounds for a lawsuit?

They broke the "2 question rule" as far as I can tell.
 

CMDRTED

New member
Based on what I read there is no suit. The Show Superintentent publishes a show premium weeks ahead of the event. In it, it states what type of collars are not permitted on the grounds. Ergo, public notice is served. As AKC is not a "public" entity, they can make up whatever rules they want for their shows.

The ADA law says she can take her service dog to the show, but there is nothing in the law about the type of collars for service dogs. As far as rudeness is concerned, rude for one person, is not necessarily rude to another. It might be annoying, but not useable.

While I comiserate with her, without hearing both sides of the story, and only this version, sorry it happened.
 

NewfieGirl01

New member
Just food for thought and honest questions to keep the discussion moving.


ADA law protects a SD handler's access to public events doesn't it?


Wouldn't the AKC show be a public event? (since the public is permitted access to the event)?





I am not 100% familiar with the law but I'm under the assumption that ADA law states that the handler can't be asked what her disability is and she can't be asked to show identification for the dog (both were asked by the AKC judges/rep).









Also, doesn't ADA protect the handler and dog from being asked to leave somewhere due to the gear the handler uses?



They and the equipment they use on their dog is protected under law is it not?








Are rules for public events hire up than the federal law? (Isn't the ADA law a federal law?)



How different would it be to say another federal law doesn't apply in a public event, because the event had different rules?




IE, a little extreme, but same concept...



Public event prohibits a certain race of people from attending.

It was posted weeks before the event but yet someone is asked to leave because the rules say “this race is not allowed at the event” Discrimination is illegal (isn’t it)





A guide dog walks into a vegan restaurant in a leather harness and the manager asks them to remove the harness or leave the restaurant… Same concept correct?








I was under the impression that “rules for public events” CAN’T trump Federal Laws (or any laws).





AKC may not be a public entity BUT they are holding a public event in which they are required to follow the same laws as everyone else.
 

newflizzie

New member
My opinion as an attorney is that ADA trumps the AKC rules. I think many people take advantage of it - I've seen a few therapy certified dogs passed off as service dogs to gain access. I've been offered to bring Lizzie in places dogs aren't allowed because she has her therapy scarf on but I always decline and explain the difference. The AKC knows the difference and knows the law. If I've read this right, she was not participating in an AKC event? If she was just a spectator the AKC can't regulate what amounts to a change of law to fit their wants and needs. She definitely has a case.

Saying that, and as a personal aside, I don't see why a trained service dog would need to wear a prong collar. I have friends who works with a service dog organization and they aren't even used in training. I don't have a problem with using a prong collar and do use one as needed, but I would think a trained service dog should be under control enough not to need one? It doesn't matter legally, I just find it interesting.
 

YorkvilleNewfie

New member
Was this dog a service dog, or an emotional support dog (as the ADA does differentiate between the two, and the same rights are not afforded to them as service animals)?
 

Whybu1

New member
Based on what I read there is no suit. The Show Superintentent publishes a show premium weeks ahead of the event. In it, it states what type of collars are not permitted on the grounds. Ergo, public notice is served. As AKC is not a "public" entity, they can make up whatever rules they want for their shows.

The ADA law says she can take her service dog to the show, but there is nothing in the law about the type of collars for service dogs. As far as rudeness is concerned, rude for one person, is not necessarily rude to another. It might be annoying, but not useable.

While I comiserate with her, without hearing both sides of the story, and only this version, sorry it happened.
They violated her rights under the ADA act when they tried to ask her more than the two approved questions about her service dog. She identified teh dog as a service dog not an emotional support dog. She cannot be asked to provide proof of service dog status. I also have a therapy dog and always make sure people understand the differance between therapy and service dogs.
 
Last edited:

911Newfs

New member
Just a little food for thought...

AKC rules also say you may not use a harness or a head collar in conformation, obedience, rally. This rule is for exhibitors, not for the public spectators. So, had this woman had a harness or halti head collar on her SD, would she have been asked to remove it or leave? IMO, the rule regarding prong collars is also for exhibitors, not public spectators.

Most advertising of dog shows encourage the public to attend these events, but also mentions that only dogs actually entered in the competitions are allowed on the premises. These announcements typically do not contain AKC rules/regulations regarding the use of certain collars/equipment, because they are addressing the public, not the exhibitors.

Dog shows are not always AKC events, they can be UKC, ASCA, etc., but they are almost always public events. ADA laws should be recognized and adhered to at any of these events. A SD handler may utilize whatever equipment is best suited for their SD and their needs.

If a dog has on a prong collar, it does not mean THAT dog is uncontrollable or untrained - if I needed to get one of my dogs away from a bad situation quickly, I can guarantee that I will be able to do so much more quickly and efficiently with the use of a prong collar vs. a slip lead.




_
 

Cascadians

New member
The service dog concept and reality is not well understood yet by the AKC or any show dog type venue, or even in working dog events that have been established for decades.

These ppl feel they are the authority on dogs and that the entire service dog movement is sloppy and not credible.

I have experienced this several times but simply quietly go on my way. I understand the thinking on all sides.

Soon the rules will have to change for the service dog community because there are too many fakers and those who need a true service dog need more support and a certification system. The problem is that this costs a lot of money and usually the disabled are not rich.

I am on a service dog forum with this handler and have read all about the incident. The AKC will lose the lawsuit and needs education and an attitude adjustment on the service dog reality.

It will also be a good time for the AKC to explicitly state in bold large print at all their events why they do not allow prong collars.
 

Cascadians

New member
As to gear, there is no stipulation that a service identifying vest or harness is required. Using one makes it easier with the onslaught of questions but there is no official requirement.

There is a requirement that the dog be leashed or tethered or under voice control. And that the dog be 'housetrained' and not disruptive, not barking begging growling jumping destructive etc.

I think one has to be sensitive to ppl's feelings and use common sense. In this case the handler did not know that prong collars were not allowed at AKC events and was surprised by the vehement attitude against prong collars. The AKC reps were upset and felt the presence of a prong collar was extremely disruptive. Basically if one is going into a place where something sets off intense emotion, removing it for that event might be sensible, if possible, just to avoid hysteria. Next time the handler will certainly remember that AKC does not like prong collars.

In any case, no matter how a person feels, it is not the most intelligent act to state in an authoritative position that one does not like the ADA laws, even when one's cronies agree. Ding Ding. Lawyer up.
 

NewfDad

Member
Once the dog is established as a service animal under ADA the dog is part of the person. The AKC rules apply to dogs, not people, the service dog is not a dog anymore just a part of the person. So the AKC rule about collars is irrelevant. As for ADA not applying to AKC, the show is a public show and there for a public accommodation. AKC is not immune from ADA or service dog legislation.
 
Top